10-02-2004 22:07									#31
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No. If you keep on speeding and violating the traffic rules, you still lose your drivers license.

	10-02-2004 22:49									#32
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We tried something similar in England a few years back.

There was an uproar and the government had to back down and repeal the provision a matter of days after it came into force.

Graduated driving bans are attractive in principle - until you find out how often a ban is ignored and how difficult they are to enforce.

	10-02-2004 22:58									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Personally, I think progressive fines are a good idea. Rich people have no incentive to follow traffic laws. What good is a $75 dollar fine when you're sitting on millions? Finland

Agreed. Look at the question another way. Why should a poor person have to pay .1% of their yearly income while the rich pay .0000001% of their income on the same offense. The rich and the poor should be treated equally under the law.

	10-02-2004 22:59									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka No. If you keep on speeding and violating the traffic rules, you still lose your drivers license.

I agree... but (at least in the US) rich people get lawyers and keep their license.

	10-02-2004 23:10									#35
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Wouldn't work here. It don't matter who you got on your corner.. we have a different system all in all. So it doesn't matter if you have a good lawyer. Well it might do you a harm if you have a bad lawyer though.

	10-02-2004 23:16									#36
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quote: Well it might do you a harm if you have a bad lawyer though.

which the poor get stuck with... or worse, no lawyer at all... or some dopey public defender.

	10-02-2004 23:17									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka No. If you keep on speeding and violating the traffic rules, you still lose your drivers license.

Naah, just means you rotate the gardner in, the butler, etc. Rich man pays the paltry fines and your on your way.

Good employment strategy. I mean heck for $170,000
Euros thats 3 people hired right there no? And you might as well get other serivces like Butlering and Gardening done?

Seriously this is ludicrous.

	10-02-2004 23:26									#38
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Sava, well this is no problem in here. That man might have been the only rich guy there is in whole country. None of us can afford lawyers, and are stuck with public ones, unless it's a big murder case where you really really need it. We don't have the same jury system etc you have. Lawyers do not play a big role here.

	10-02-2004 23:28									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Sava, well this is no problem in here. That man might have been the only rich guy there is in whole country. None of us can afford lawyers, and are stuck with public ones, unless it's a big murder case where you really really need it. We don't have the same jury system etc you have. Lawyers do not play a big role here.

well sorry, my cynicism and skepticism exists because I live in a country where the poor get screwed.

Finland > America

	10-02-2004 23:35									#40
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Suspension of drivers licence would be a better penalty.

Why punish the rich more than the poor?

	10-02-2004 23:35									#41
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In the face of justice in court, it don't matter who you are. Except yeah, if you are very rich which I mind you is uncommon here, you might have a super lawyer and you get off easier, but you're not getting of if it's a criminal court. And criminal court is the one mostly used here, we don't sue each other here at all. In fact, there's a problem with individuals not being able to sue the ones responsible for lets say accidents etc. So criminal court is the way to go, and everyone is equal there for sure. No on gets punished. Except richies with traffic violations .

	10-02-2004 23:37									#42
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Ben, I agree, something that is more equal. I don't think the same percentage of earnings is equal punishment, but sure if you have a great income, you should pay more. But basically, taking away driving privilidges (because it's not a right), would be working and naturally is at use, maybe it should be used more often.

	10-02-2004 23:40									#43
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quote: but sure if you have a great income, you should pay more.

They worked hard for their money. Why should they redistribute his money to everyone else?

	10-02-2004 23:43									#44
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Well, I'm not talking more like this. Way more moderate. Way way way more moderate. Few thousands euros would be fine.

	10-02-2004 23:45									#45
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What a pity excuse for the state to draw off money.

SPEEDING IS **** OF A CRIME!!!
Everybody does it anyway.

Go to Austria and try to drive a little below or right at the speed LIMIT. You'll cause massive traffic jam.
If you dont go at least 10kmph above limit you are a jammer.
Thats because they set up ridiculously low limits and claim everything on SPEEDING.

But still they want you to pay xx million euros for a 300hp car (because they get 35% of it).
If they want to adress speeding really as issue then they wouldnt allow cars to be sold that drive faster than 130kmph and need at least 20 sec to go to 100kmph.

But of course they dont do that because they want the money that they get with the fast car.

****ED UP MORAL!!!

	10-02-2004 23:53									#46
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Atahualpa, same here, everyone is speeding anyway. 10km/h is the 'you're not getting ticketed for this' speed and everyone does it, or you are like you said, a jammer.

	11-02-2004 00:06									#47
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There are two sides of this story, the driving side, and the social side.

On the social side, I have nothing against the driver's fine being proportional to the drivers income. I think it's great.

On the driving side, I think that speed limits on freeways are stupid. I think there are things that truly show if a person is careful or not. Speed ain't one of them. I am all too familiar myself with this. Going 60mph on a completely empty main road and being summoned to court just because the speed limit there was 35mph ( because noone bothered putting the sign there, though the road was 3 lanes wide), have my trial scheduled in the beginning of April.

	11-02-2004 00:11									#48
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Yeah and the worst thing is they build streets and then they allow ppl to settle near this streets who then in turn complain about the traffic and what not.

I mean there are so many traffic going through some villages which is clearly not okay.
But any street they build round the village ppl will try to settle there.

	11-02-2004 00:14									#49
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well, you see that's the nature of humans:

Rule #1: Create settlements near important Junctions.
Rule #2: Moan.

	11-02-2004 00:19									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I think this is a good idea.

Why? If you don't believe that a reasonable fine will deter someone, take thier license from them.

	11-02-2004 00:23									#51
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So do you think that rich people must have their licenses revoked when caught speeding?

	11-02-2004 00:28									#52
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No. I think the same standard of justice should apply to both poor and rich people. That's why I don't agree with such idiotic concepts as progressive sentencing that seem quite popular in this thread.

	11-02-2004 00:55									#53
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc No. I think the same standard of justice should apply to both poor and rich people. That's why I don't agree with such idiotic concepts as progressive sentencing that seem quite popular in this thread.

Uh! As I said above:

"Why should a poor person have to pay .1% of their yearly income while the rich pay .0000001% of their income on the same offense. The rich and the poor should be treated equally under the law."

If you charge by flat percentage of income then you are treating the rich and the poor equally.

	11-02-2004 01:00									#54
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar Uh! As I said above:

We aren't taxing these people. If you can give me a good reason why the same crime should have differing punishments based on who you are, I'd be willing to listen.

	11-02-2004 01:03									#55
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc We aren't taxing these people. If you can give me a good reason why the same crime should have differing punishments based on who you are, I'd be willing to listen.

It is the same punishment - i.e. x percent of your income. How is fining the exact same percentage not the same punishment?

	11-02-2004 01:37									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi They worked hard for their money. Why should they redistribute his money to everyone else?

This guy just got a huge legacy.

	11-02-2004 12:53									#57
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I fail to understand Pekkas need to bash everything finnish, you can almost smell his bitterness and cynicism. In contrast to the lies and bad guesses about finnish crime and justice system heres how american officials see things:

"...Finnish police services are excellent; however, some police officers speak little English....Street crimes, such as muggings and pickpocketing, remain relatively uncommon, but do occur.

Safety of Public Transportation: Excellent
Urban Road Condition/Maintenance: Excellent
Rural Road Condition/Maintenance: Excellent
Availability of Roadside Assistance: Excellent

Travelers should be aware that drunk-driving laws are strict, and acceptable blood alcohol levels are much lower in Finland than in the U.S. Police strictly enforce all traffic laws and institute random roadside Breathalyzer tests. Those drivers who register a .05 or above alcohol content are subject to immediate arrest...... Penalties for breaking the law can be more severe than in the United States for similar offenses. Persons violating Finland's laws, even unknowingly, may be expelled, arrested or imprisoned. Penalties for possession, use, or trafficking in illegal drugs in Finland are strict and convicted offenders can expect jail sentences and heavy fines."

http://travel.state.gov/finland.html

More:

"Finland & Sweden: Jail - 1 year hard labor plus fines. NOTE: in Finland, if an individual yields a vehicle to someone guilty of drunk driving, they will be fined or imprisoned for up to 1 year."

http://www.drinkingdriving.net/

And from a finnish site:

"Suomessa jää vuosittain kiinni noin 20 000 rattijuoppoa. Muiden Pohjoismaiden tavoin rattijuopumus Suomessa on useimpiin maihin verrattuna poikkeuksellisen vähäistä. Kiinnijääneiden suuri määrä kertookin paljolti valvonnan tehokkuudesta. Tiukalla valvonnalla ja melko ankarilla rangaistuksilla on tukenaan kansalaisten laaja hyväksyntä."

tr.(bad)

"20 000 drunk drivers are caught annually in Finland. Along with other Nordic countries drunk driving in Finland is exceptionally rare compared to most other countries. The large amount of offenders caught annually is mainly due of the exellent surveillance. Strict surveillance and relatively harsh punisments have the backing of the majority of citizens."

http://www.paihdelinkki.fi/tietopan...tolinja/131.htm

That is how things really are outside Pekkas imagination. About the fines, yes I too think progressive fines are good, but with 100 000 euro limit.

Last edited by laurentius on 11-02-2004 at 13:42

	11-02-2004 12:58									#58
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quote: No. I think the same standard of justice should apply to both poor and rich people.

has nothing to do with

quote: That's why I don't agree with such idiotic concepts as progressive sentencing that seem quite popular in this thread.

There is no progressive sentencing. It's sentencing as a flat percentage of the the wage, so that both rich and poor would be equally deterred from commiting the crime, and in the same time, without taking their licence away.

	11-02-2004 13:06									#59
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quote: This guy just got a huge legacy.

Not sure what you mean here.

Are you trying to say I'm rich?

	11-02-2004 13:11									#60
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quote: heres how american officials see things:

OOOH! How CREDIBLE!
Pekka.....Lauri sure got you beat. I mean, the AMERICANS are calling your justice system GREAT