11-02-2004 13:17									#61
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Shouldnt you be sleeping, troll?

Last edited by laurentius on 11-02-2004 at 13:22

	11-02-2004 13:33									#62
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I think this is a great system.

Applying a flat amount doesn't work against people with truckloads of $. Applying a flat percentage does.

	11-02-2004 15:02									#63
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No, well I say Justice System sucks, but the actual how it works is not bad, and I think it's good. Like I said, we're all pretty equal in criminal courts etc.

But the decisions sucks horrible butts, and that's because of the scale they have.

You can go all statistics if you want to though. If you say 'drunk driving is not a problem' or that 'drunk driving is a worse problem in foreign coutnries' hey, that's even more cynicism from your part. The situation with drunk driving IS horrible here. 20 000 might have been caught, but remember we don't have wide traffic police thing going on ala highway patrol. If we had that, we'd get 200 000 per year or more.

	11-02-2004 15:07									#64
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Hey I read those quoted parts. you know that's complete BS. YOu k now that is not how it is, so you claim I'm imagining these things?

drunk drivers going for prison?

Heavy fines?

Excellent survaillance?

Jeesh I mean what ever.

	11-02-2004 15:08									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Not sure what you mean here. Are you trying to say I'm rich?

Sorry. Not you (Or how do I know ). But the one who got fined.

	11-02-2004 15:21									#66
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Leaving how to quantify fines aside Finland certainly seems to take driving safeguards seriously.

Pekka thinks this lies poorly with a liberal attitude towards serious crime.

But I am not so sure.

If you compare the numbers of people killed and injured on the roads to the number killed and injured in serious crimes roads outscore crimes pretty heavily.

I remember acting for the family of a little girl knocked down and killed as she crossed the road to her home after being dropped by the school bus. Her mother was prostrate with grief and had still not come out of her room when my involvement ended some months later. I really do not see how she could have been more distressed had her daughter been mown down by a gun toting criminal than she was. And certainly the victim of a car accident is just as dead as the victim of a serious crime.

It is notoriously difficult to deter serious crime merely by concentrating on detection and sentence. Whereas strict enforcement of the standards imposed by law on drivers does feed directly through to improved safety on the roads.

I have never seen any statistics comparing number and severity of accident where a lax approach is taken to speed limits and number and severity of accident where a strict approach is followed. But instinct suggests to me that there would be a difference. There are figures on drunk driving because local initiatives often change police priorities for a time. Such campaigns to enforce drink driving provisions always impact on figures for death and injury on the road.

	11-02-2004 17:08									#67
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Pekka, all I show was that you have absolutely no backing for your claims. According to the statistics drunk driving isnt such a huge problem as you make it look like. If your friends or people you know drink and drive a lot it doesnt mean everybody does. I mean think about it, why would site like päihdelinkki want to make things look better than they are. They have no motive for such thing.

Its good to be critical of course but making false claims and just blatant lies is something youd better leave to the obvious trollers here.

	11-02-2004 19:30									#68
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quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader If you compare the numbers of people killed and injured on the roads to the number killed and injured in serious crimes roads outscore crimes pretty heavily.

You know what's worse? Tobacco. In the US, tobacco-related deaths is about 10 times that of deaths caused by car accidents.

	11-02-2004 20:19									#69
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Just a few things from my side:

1.) Speeding, me thinks, isn't a problem. Before being bashed: In Germany there are (normally) no speed limits on the highway/motorway and far less accidents than in countries with speed-limits. It is again simple: If you know somebody might be coming from the back with 200+km/h you check twice your mirrors. But when you have speed-limits people kind of ignore that somebody might be trying to overtake them (personal experience throughout the world).

2.) For the fine: Sounds quite OK for me. % of income, fair and easy. No hazzle no struggle with laywers.........Have seen to many reports (especially US) where the rich one with a good one get's off. (like recently on black singer IIRC, got off for DUI with 2 days of jail and having 2 the limit). And why having an upper limit for the fine? You earned so much, you pay so much. If you lost your license as a rich guy, just employ a few drivers for you

	11-02-2004 20:43									#70
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laurentius, I still claim that we have a BAD problem with drunk drivers. If you claim otherwise, hey, by all means. From population of 5 million, if 20 000 get caught every year, and naturally even more of those are never caught, hey, I say it's a HUGE problem. It's mostly an attitude problem though.

Furthermore, if you agree that drunk drivers get fitting punishments, then I have to disagree. Getting fined for drunk driving and never seeing jail is horrible. If it's a little above the limist and person is seemingly in condition, then fine will be ok I think if it is his/her first time and there was no visible danger when was caught, but if there's anything else to the story, I say jail time is in order. Not just one night because you can't continue driving, I say a month or two will do good. Second timers, they can go and actually go inside the prison for that time.

If someone is rich, and has to pay 170 000 for speeding, and someone makes less money but still OK income, drunk drives, and psosibly wrecks few cars and gets less fines, I'd say there's a problem right there.

Or, equal punishments, like both have to go to driving school is fine with me, or both get the same beating. In terms of money, it's a joke.

Drunk driving is a huge problem and if you fail to acknolidge it, there's no hope for you.

	12-02-2004 00:55									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Doesn't say, but it says he got fined for 20 days fine (we have a system where you get fined by a day, and it depends what your income is what the total will be). I got what...... 20 also, and it was 100 euros few summers ago. With 0 income. So he didn't brake the what we call serious limits, what would also mean suspended license for a while. So he didn't even lose his drivers license, so he wasn't going THAT fast, even though he was speeding some.

This is brilliant system, its assures everyone gets an equivilent financial "wake up call" no matter what their income is.

So if someone was unemployed and got a 20 day ticket they wouldn't have to pay anything?

	12-02-2004 01:03									#72
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I like the system from the stand point that if law enforcement is as it is here in the US funded by fines, who are the police more likely to arrest, some shlub making 20,000 euros or some well off guy making 2,000,000 euros?

hmmm.....

Do you think they might be going over the roads with a fine tooth comb for any welathy guy driving whilst ignoring other problems?

I can see it now:

Officer:Chief we need some new DVD players and better donuts for teh squad room.

Chief: Well you know what to do. Go change the speed limit signs near society hill.

	12-02-2004 01:10									#73
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I don't have a problem with that.

	12-02-2004 02:13									#74
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Ogie Oglethorpe: The police don't fund their operations through fines. Sure, the fines indirectly funds the police since it is money for the state, but there is no direct connection between police funding and value of fines invoiced. At best, increased fines will increase the police budget the next year.

	12-02-2004 02:18									#75
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quote: Graduated driving bans are attractive in principle - until you find out how often a ban is ignored and how difficult they are to enforce.

Indeed... I mean, what are we talking here, does the court have do an audit on every speeder to see how much they can really pay?

And, of course, we will get the enforcement problems of police being told to go after speeders driving BMV's and Mercedes' because that will result in more money in the coffers of the city.

Utterly silly.

	12-02-2004 02:21									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Hurricane At best, increased fines will increase the police budget the next year.

Yippee. New squad cars with Bose stereos around.

It seems to me this is another means of penalizing the rich simply because they are rich, or most likely targeting the rich because they are rich.

But because it is the ultimate sin to actually be wealthy I suppose all is fair no?

	12-02-2004 02:28									#77
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Yes, being rich is BAD. Even though you pay more taxes, and likely are worth 100 people tax wise, it doesn't matter, you're a bastard for having a nice car, a house, and nicer things. I think we should all go to streets and take these evil money whales and take their money which they stole anyway and give it to the poor. Yes!

	12-02-2004 02:35									#78
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Shhhh....

Pekka there are commies everywhere you know. Mustn't give them too many ideas.

	12-02-2004 04:06									#79
	Re: Finnish justice system strikes again! Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Pekka This one though is not about too easy punishments, this is the other side to it, which is naturally also unfair. We just can't get anything right. This guy was speeding, traffic violation, can you guess how much he got fined? Let me hint you, it's another world record, and to my joy it is to say we hold the other records too. 170 000 euros. YES! He has a good income, I guess he's even little rich. But hey, to get 170 000 euros just because you have good income? It makes the papers for sure, but most people are thinking 'he has the money to pay for it' and is happy about it. Jealous happiness. If you make money, you deserve to get assraped. The way of thinking behind this is, that the punsihment should be the same for everyone, meaning if we fine the rich, it must hurt like it hurts the poor. Now that is ****ed up. Now what about killers? If you're let's say child gets murdered, you get about 3-4000 euros for pain and mental trauma (yes, that's about how much it is in courts), and another one for other inconvinience. Life costs about 10 000 euros or less in here. But if you have money and drive too fast with your nice car, hey, 170 000 is totally justified, in line with the other punishments, totally logical and yeah, I think rich people should just die so we poor folks can be happy about ourselves.

can you give links to this (like from your last statement about murder)

JOn miller

	12-02-2004 04:28									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Indeed... I mean, what are we talking here, does the court have do an audit on every speeder to see how much they can really pay?

There's something called a tax declaration.

quote: And, of course, we will get the enforcement problems of police being told to go after speeders driving BMV's and Mercedes' because that will result in more money in the coffers of the city. Utterly silly.

Yeah. We might as well solve the problem of the police going against ethnic minorities, without even any directive for it. Do you really think the police will let the cheap cars go?

	12-02-2004 04:33									#81
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quote: There's something called a tax declaration.

But how do you know if they didn't lie on their taxes? We are just going to take their income tax filings as truth? What if they have a ton of money in offshore tax havens? Wouldn't laws like this just increase that?

quote: We might as well solve the problem of the police going against ethnic minorities, without even any directive for it.

Just because there is one wrong, we should initiate another?

quote: Do you really think the police will let the cheap cars go?

If you get much more money for every expensive care, HELL YA!

	12-02-2004 04:57									#82
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C'mon Imran, are you having a bad time recently? Your posts have definitely been sucking more than usual in the last few days.


Why is it that the police is not all set on finding speeders? Why is it that they're spending any money on crimes with no fines as the penalty? Do you think the radar guy even has the time to notice the brand of the car? And do you think he would let go a cheap car, on the prospect he could arrest a Porsche in the meantime?- now that would be losing money.

As for the tax declaration, yes, it's a problem. High taxes yield greater evasion. Then so what? We can't catch all criminals, and we can't assume a tax declaration to be false in the beginning.

Wasn't it you who said that ALL laws should be enforced? So well, enforce the tax laws enough that people will fear evading it.

	12-02-2004 05:04									#83
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quote: Why is it that the police is not all set on finding speeders? Why is it that they're spending any money on crimes with no fines as the penalty? Do you think the radar guy even has the time to notice the brand of the car? And do you think he would let go a cheap car, on the prospect he could arrest a Porsche in the meantime?- now that would be losing money.

The police usually do NOT stop you for going 10 miles over the speed limit, because the fines are too miniscule to waste their time.

And yes I said they'd let go a cheap car because they want to wait for a Porsche... . Chances are the cheap car isn't the only one speeding (unless you drive on wierd roads where only one car speeds) and the cops, instead of going after the cheap car going 20 miles over the speed limit, will instead go for the 10 mph over the limit rich car.

quote: So well, enforce the tax laws enough that people will fear evading it.

Tax shelters are NOT illegal! There is a reason they are refered to as 'loopholes'.

	12-02-2004 05:07									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor This is probably a better idea than a fine anyway. But if your country insists on deterring crime with fines, they should indeed be as much of a pain for the rich as for the poor. Otherwise, the fines would be "just another little fee to pay" for the rich to have a dangerous behaviour.

Yeah, but should a person EVER have to pay more for a SPEEDING ticket than even one person has to for rape or murder?

	12-02-2004 05:11									#85
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar Agreed. Look at the question another way. Why should a poor person have to pay .1% of their yearly income while the rich pay .0000001% of their income on the same offense. The rich and the poor should be treated equally under the law.

Why should you be measuring in percent of income anyways? "Equally" would mean they pay exactly the same amount - last time I checked, 170,000 != 160

	12-02-2004 05:14									#86
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar It is the same punishment - i.e. x percent of your income. How is fining the exact same percentage not the same punishment?

How about this, then - let's make the fine proportional to the INVERSE of your income? A flat percent is proportional to your income, a progressive tax is proportional to the square of your income, why can't I have something proportional to my income to the -1?

	12-02-2004 05:16									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You know what's worse? Tobacco. In the US, tobacco-related deaths is about 10 times that of deaths caused by car accidents.

I take it you also support the "war on drugs" then... because the reason tobacco causes more deaths is because it's USED more.

EDIT: than other drugs

	12-02-2004 05:25									#88
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Yeah, but should a person EVER have to pay more for a SPEEDING ticket than even one person has to for rape or murder?

I don't think rape of murder should be punished by fines actually. Prison, reeducation and psychological treatment are much better IMHO.

But if rape or murder are fined, I'd indeed feel very awkward if the maximal fine for speeding (the maximal % of your income) ever excesses the minimal fine for raping or murdering (the minimal % of your income)

	12-02-2004 05:31									#89
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I mean the actual number - if anyone ever has to pay, say, 100,000 euros for a crime like that, no one should pay over 100,000 for speeding. It's a travesty.

	12-02-2004 05:35									#90
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker I mean the actual number - if anyone ever has to pay, say, 100,000 euros for a crime like that, no one should pay over 100,000 for speeding. It's a travesty.

Not if you change your frame of reference, and think purely in terms of % of income instead of hard numbers.