10-02-2004 20:01									#1
	Finnish justice system strikes again! Tired of ads?

This one though is not about too easy punishments, this is the other side to it, which is naturally also unfair. We just can't get anything right.

This guy was speeding, traffic violation, can you guess how much he got fined? Let me hint you, it's another world record, and to my joy it is to say we hold the other records too.

170 000 euros. YES! He has a good income, I guess he's even little rich. But hey, to get 170 000 euros just because you have good income? It makes the papers for sure, but most people are thinking 'he has the money to pay for it' and is happy about it. Jealous happiness. If you make money, you deserve to get assraped.

The way of thinking behind this is, that the punsihment should be the same for everyone, meaning if we fine the rich, it must hurt like it hurts the poor. Now that is ****ed up. Now what about killers? If you're let's say child gets murdered, you get about 3-4000 euros for pain and mental trauma (yes, that's about how much it is in courts), and another one for other inconvinience. Life costs about 10 000 euros or less in here. But if you have money and drive too fast with your nice car, hey, 170 000 is totally justified, in line with the other punishments, totally logical and yeah, I think rich people should just die so we poor folks can be happy about ourselves.

	10-02-2004 20:03									#2
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How fast was he going? We haven't invented warp drive yet so I can not see how they arrive at such a fine.

	10-02-2004 20:08									#3
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Doesn't say, but it says he got fined for 20 days fine (we have a system where you get fined by a day, and it depends what your income is what the total will be). I got what...... 20 also, and it was 100 euros few summers ago. With 0 income. So he didn't brake the what we call serious limits, what would also mean suspended license for a while. So he didn't even lose his drivers license, so he wasn't going THAT fast, even though he was speeding some.

	10-02-2004 20:10									#4
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It was on 40km/h speed limit, so it was under 80km/h, because he only got 20 days.. I'd say somewhere between 60-70km/h, meaning about 20-30km/h speeding, that would be .... 15mph about..

	10-02-2004 20:12									#5
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That seems a little excessive.

	10-02-2004 20:14									#6
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So, if I understand correctly, he has to pay 20 days of his income, like anybody else who sped that much?

I see nothing wrong with it. Jail time, suspension of driver's licence etc. are punishments that affect everyone equally (or almost). Why should fines be different?

	10-02-2004 20:14									#7
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No ****?

Also keep in mind, that you don't get punished here for raping, even multpile pedophiles avoid prison time and might get few thousand euro fine, drunk drivers can have multiple multiple offenses within the same year, never see prison, killers are in prison for few years in reality etc. But if you have good income and speed a little, you get 170 000 euro fine.

	10-02-2004 20:16									#8
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Spiffor, no it's not how much you make in 20 days.. I'm not sure how they calculate it. Or then it is, I'm not sure. But they also take it from the .. what you call it the money BEFORE taxes, that's your income, and the cops get the IRS give the numbers and that's it, you're screwed.

No it's not right, I don't see how anyone can say seriously, that 170 000 euro fine is called for. I mean sure, if we also put 600000 years for drinking and driving, and killers shot on spot. This is not equality. Losing drivers license would be equal punishment.

	10-02-2004 20:17									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Also keep in mind, that you don't get punished here for raping, even multpile pedophiles avoid prison time and might get few thousand euro fine, drunk drivers can have multiple multiple offenses within the same year, never see prison, killers are in prison for few years in reality etc. But if you have good income and speed a little, you get 170 000 euro fine.

And the results of this policy are? How do you compete wrt crime with other countries?

	10-02-2004 20:19									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Losing drivers license would be equal punishment.

This is probably a better idea than a fine anyway. But if your country insists on deterring crime with fines, they should indeed be as much of a pain for the rich as for the poor. Otherwise, the fines would be "just another little fee to pay" for the rich to have a dangerous behaviour.

	10-02-2004 20:20									#11
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Violent crimes are bad. European standard, violent crimes are real bad. Drunk driving, we might be #1 in the world, I don't know but it's horrible here. Rapings, who knows, maybe not very high.

Besides, you can NOT draw conclusions and say this is because of this policy, and the numbers are because of this and this.

Keep in mind, that this person already is paying gigantic taxes that is our policy, I mean huge taxes. Now he gets screwed again, and the calculate his income with the before taxes price, so that makes it even more unequal.

	10-02-2004 20:21									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I see nothing wrong with it.

You don't see anything a little odd with a 170K euro speeding ticket?

	10-02-2004 20:22									#13
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Spiffor, nope, I don't agree. I agree that the punishments should be equal, but not like this. I think it hurts a little more if you have to pay 170 000 for what a person who makes 2000 a monthj would pay little over 160 euros or something like that. The point is, you are being punished for having money.

	10-02-2004 20:23									#14
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I might say, that yeah for better income people the fine for traffic violation could be higher, but hey, there should be some limits to that.

Also, it's not about how much you have made in the last 10 years. I hope I don't win in lottery with my poor ass and then get fined the next year, because I'll loose just about all of it

	10-02-2004 20:27									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Losing drivers license would be equal punishment.

Don't get me started

	10-02-2004 20:28									#16
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I don't see anything wrong with it. Are you saying that the rich should have a right to break laws the rest of us have to obey simply because what is a big fine for us is pocket lint for them?

	10-02-2004 20:29									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Violent crimes are bad. European standard, violent crimes are real bad. Drunk driving, we might be #1 in the world, I don't know but it's horrible here. Rapings, who knows, maybe not very high. Besides, you can NOT draw conclusions and say this is because of this policy, and the numbers are because of this and this.

Well, then you'd better rethink your whole crime-determent policy. It clearly seems not to work.

quote: Keep in mind, that this person already is paying gigantic taxes that is our policy, I mean huge taxes. Now he gets screwed again, and the calculate his income with the before taxes price, so that makes it even more unequal.

OK, now this is unfair to calculate the fine on the pre-tax income, given that he already pays much of them.

quote: The point is, you are being punished for having money.

Err, he was punished for speeding

DinoDoc

quote: You don't see anything a little odd with a 170K euro speeding ticket?

I see nothing odd with having to pay 20 days of your income for a ticket. Except that it's too many days for such an offense IMHO. It can be a real pain in the ass to finish the month if you don't have savings to make it.

	10-02-2004 20:30									#18
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Who says they have the right to break the law?
I'm saying, there should be some .. ... 170 000 euros! that's all I can say. If he had actually done more serious speeding, which intitles losing drivers license, he would have gotten 340 000 euro fine. I'm saying this is not justice.

	10-02-2004 20:34									#19
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Spiffor, we don't have crime detterant. Violence is in our genes. It's not a crime.
Beating your wife is not a crime, it's domestic issues and no one should intervene.

I think 20 days is the minimum for the little traffic violation. It's not 20 days from your pay like that, for example, if I make 2000 euros a month, it would be about 160 euros. This guys real income was 125 000 euros last year, but he got 6 point something million euros in capital income. So it's even more unfair right there .

	10-02-2004 20:39									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Beating your wife is not a crime, it's domestic issues and no one should intervene.

I really hope you're trying to be funny.

	10-02-2004 20:39									#21
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Lots of things are absurd.

The concept, I think, is a good one.

But 20 days?

It sounds like the penalty is still based on km/h above the limit. How stupid is that? Doing 80 in a 40 zone is WAY WORSE than doing 140 in a 100. Same system in Canada though.

Speeding tickets are a very strange sort of tax grab.

The limits put on speeds tend also to be bizarre. On roads where influential people live, they often get the speed limit reduced without and traffic engineering principles to support it.

The speed limit is supposedly a matter of safety. Yet the legal speed limit is exactly the same, day or night, rain or shine, snow, ice or fog, and regardless of the amount of traffic on the roads...

	10-02-2004 20:40									#22
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I'm not trying to be funny. I don't think this way, hitting your wife is even more disgraceful than hitting some stranger. Beating is beating and it's not allowed except for self defense, except in Finland.

	10-02-2004 20:40									#23
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Maybe we should make it ten minutes of your time. That way the rich can pay $50 and I could pay $5. That way, no one would have to pay attention to the law and our highyways could become the death traps we all want them to be.

	10-02-2004 20:41									#24
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I agree, doing 80 would be worse in 40 limit area than 140 in 100. I agree, but then again, 20 days is the minimum you can get here.

	10-02-2004 20:42									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka This guys real income was 125 000 euros last year, but he got 6 point something million euros in capital income. So it's even more unfair right there .

Sp, this guy got an actual income of 6,125,000 Euros + pocket money last year?

Let's see, 20 days of 6 mil a year is about 328,000. 20 days of 2,000 a month is about 1,333.

Indeed, the relationship between the small actual small fine (160€) and the actual big fine (170,000€) is not strictly mathematical, which can be something you complain about. But the principle that tickets are based on your income is a fundamentally good principle, because it makes every citizen, rich or poor, trying hard to avoid getting finced.

	10-02-2004 21:08									#26
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Nah, he got close to seven million, but he raised 125 000 euros last year.
Yes fundamentally it's ok, but there needs to be some limitations on how much you can get fined, and use some kind of other algorithms that they now use.

	10-02-2004 21:12									#27
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Maybe we should make it ten minutes of your time. That way the rich can pay $50 and I could pay $5. That way, no one would have to pay attention to the law and our highyways could become the death traps we all want them to be.

A new market to tap into as we develop cars with collision avoidance, all going as fast as they can.

	10-02-2004 21:20									#28
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Personally, I think progressive fines are a good idea. Rich people have no incentive to follow traffic laws. What good is a $75 dollar fine when you're sitting on millions?

Finland

	10-02-2004 21:46									#29
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I think this is a good idea. A normal fine might not be enough to discourage very wealthy motorists from driving.

	10-02-2004 22:01									#30
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I think this is a great idea. It results in more poorly paid chaffeurs speeding!!!