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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
Ah, alrighty then. Still, IIRC, stealing techs is quite expensive, and there is a risk of failure, even with the "safe" option, right?
-Arrian |
expensive, yes. prohibitive, I have no clue. still a minute risk with safe, not sure what.
I've heard this rumor that if you steal and fail in a pbem, there's no notice given to the opponent civ, anybody know for sure here?
my point of all this is, we are ahead right now, sure, but there are ways GWT could catch up beyond mere research.
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Dominae
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Stealing a Medieval era tech "Safely" would cost upwards of 2000 Gold.
Dominae
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Hot_Enamel
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Melbourne, Australia
Aug 2002
time: 14:33
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I am enjoying reading the discussion here.
I have no problems in planning and building up our offensive. But I doubt we will have the chance to do it.
If CGN falls, they will fall hard and fast.
There is no way that they will hold out for whatever number of turns we need to build up our invasion.
As soon as those first few border cities start to fall, it will mean a swift end for CGN.
Attacking GWT, will then be very hard, because as Dom points out, it is very easy for GWT to protect those LZ's. And if they are smart, they will also recognise the strategic importance of those areas, and have them well guarded.
On the other hand, if by some miricle CGN does hold on, then it would come only after GWT has exhausted their entire army & economy.
CGN gets Sipahi, a GA, and then GWT will then find themselves in a precarious position. We could end up invading CGN to save GWT ass instead.
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Hot_Enamel
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Melbourne, Australia
Aug 2002
time: 14:33
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Other remote considerations…
A goal to take out GWT’s forbidden palace is a good one. It will half their economy in 1 foul swoop. But also remember, GWT is at war, and does have the chance of getting Great Leaders. Now GL’s don’t come around often (unless you play for Gathering Storm  ), but they are possible, and GWT could easily rebuild their city and rush another forbidden palace.
So, perhaps we should consider our invasion army as 100% expendable. They take the forbidden palace, but then they keep fighting to take as many surrounding cities as possible to maximise the damage. So that using a GL to replace their forbidden city does not mean an instant return of large cities with no corruption
We may also want to take along some combat settler for a fort.
I always have a few handy in any offensive I take.
If our army does find little resistance, then they can destroy GWT cities (to ensure GWT cant take them back) but then hole up in a Poly city, that will automatically disband if taken by GWT.
Plus we have no idea what we find over there. We could find out neither GWT or CGN have any army left, and we can march over both of them.
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by civman2000
Can you rebuild the FP after you lose its city? I though you could only build small wonders once... |
you can rebuild the FP as much as you want. I've used it frequently against the AI, but never a human, 200 shields is just too valuable.
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:33
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I've been meaning to do this for a bit. This thread prompted me to do it. Things are better than many may assume.
code:
Area Land Tiles Coast Tiles
Greater Carthage 244 110
India 108 50 Old Catch lands
Apolyton Total 352 160
China 141 97
Tibet 66 30 the grass west of India that started the great war
Islands 21 44
CFC Total 228 171
Turkey 281 128
Arabia 168 ~95 estimates based on what is seen
East Africa 156 ~97 The area west of German core
Syria 79 35 Isthmus north of Turkey
German Total 403 227
Combined Poly & CFC 580 331
Combined GWT & Turkey 684 355
Last edited by notyoueither on 14-02-2004 at 05:01
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:33
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As can be seen, we have an edge on the Germans and their lap dogs of 180 land tiles at this time.
Whether GWT gives Turkey to GCA or not, it would take a large number of turns before anyone can make Turkey profitable for their coalition (read huge number of turns, ~100?).
Once GWT can get control of Turkey, unless they give it to GCA, it will do them little good without a palace jump, assuming that they already have their FP in [Syria] (which makes a lot of sense).
With the eventual count with both sides being at full use lends GWT only a 20% advantage, I would say our 3 palace setup (Karina, Apolyton Prime, CFC) will allow us to gain a significant lead over them in technology and shields per turn.
I would hazard a guess that we should be able to have all of their major cities nuked before they figure out what a radio is.
I am not too concerned about geography any longer.
Last edited by notyoueither on 14-02-2004 at 05:03
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:33
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As for the rate of research, we (and CGN) are the ones currently in the drivers seat. We feel that CGN will (after GP) go for the MT route, which will require Chem and Metal, 2 very big techs. Just to give you an idea, editor tech costs:
GP = 48
Chem = 60
Metal = 64
Mil Trad = 64
So, it;s concevable that it will take them (CGN) time to get to that point.
For us, as long as we are in the drivers seat, we can control WHEN GWT will get to the next age. With that in mind, it's better to go slowly now, get ourselfs set up builder wise, then rush to the other. AS LONG AS GWT has to do it;s own research on both sets of the tech tree (with assistance from GCA, like we are doing with CFC), then it will be a long, long time before we get to this point.
E_T
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
Summarizing the long discussion we had with Dominae in the chat:
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A good summary, but of course I have some points to add. 
quote:
We must reach a decision soon on whether to actively prepare for an invasion of GWT or go the super-builder route. We cannot do both.
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This is critical. Given Master Zen's comments below, I'm not sure he appreciates this point fully. We cannot afford to prepare for every eventuality. We will not get ahead this way. For instance, we cannot afford to spend a lot of Commerce on a Magnetism beeline, then realise we're not going to invade. We need to tidy up our operations, and this involves focus.
quote:
Dom's argument is that this decision needs to be taken NOW, my argument ist hat we should still wait a few turns before making the decision, sepecifically until we figure out if GWT's advance against CGN will result in a smashing victory or into a more drawn out struggle after it peters out.
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The way I see it, if either side gets a decisive advantage over the next 20 turns, we will not be in a position to do anything about it. There are three scenarios:
1. CGN and GWT fight, lose a lot of units, but end ending hostilities in order to regroup.
2. GWT breaks down CGN's defenses and wins within the next thirty turns.
3. CGN successfully repels GWT's attack, hits Military Tradition, and gains the upper hand.
Only the second and third cases require military intervention on our part. Our hope will then be to strike either side while they're weak and (presumably) unexpecting. In #2, GWT's window for victory is the next 30 turns, and therefore our window for attacking them is in the same time frame. In #3, we have a little more leeway. A lot more, actually. So much so that I would say #3 begins to resemble #1 in terms of what we should be going for, namely, a super-buidler approach.
In the first case (and the third, as just pointed out above), military intervention would not be in our best interests: as long as neither team is winning over there, we have enough land (and trading partners!) to make a serious play at out-building either or both of them.
Now here's my main point: the "predicting" stage of what will happen is over. No more sitting on the fence. Either we make a play for military intervention on the other continent, or we do not (at least not within the next 40-50 turns). If we prepare for war while building, our intervention will likely be poor because we will have spent too many resources on Libraries, Irrigation, and yes, even Settlers. If we build while keeping the war option open on the side, we will lose a lot of Gold in research and upkeep costs, and a lot of Shields in naval and land units.
quote:
Likely sooner than 500 AD which is what I propose as the maximum date before we make the dicision to go full-military or not.
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I believe this is a slippery slope. In 500AD it may still not be obvious what's going on, and so we will be spending even more Gold to figure it out, and waste more resources planning for both eventualities. Then again, it may be perfectly obvious, in which case we will have wasted a lot of resources in the interim. I believe this is a very critical 10 turns coming up.
It's time to make a decision:
1. Build. Accept the possibility that we may be out-built if one of GWT or CGN takes the upper hand too quickly.
2. Fight. Accept the possibility that we may be repelled due to our inferior economy.
Both these options involvey very different economic decisions.
quote:
If GWT ends up with a smashing victory during this timeframe, these few turns won't really make much difference since CGN will be defeated anyway and we'd need a pretty large force to damage GWT. On the other hand, if we take the decision now it is a coin toss on stalemate/victory, which means we can squander a HUGE (perhaps game-winning) economical lead by going full-military if eventually CGN halts GWT's advance.
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However, in either case we will do better if we just pick one or the other right now. I'll admit right now I'm not big on the military intervention idea; I doubt Trip's plan would work. But if the team is really behind that course of action in spirit, our best chance of making it happen is to prepare now. If we wait even 10 turns our chances at success go down dramatically. I'm more confident in our chances at going full-builder, which is why I would like to implement that plan now.
quote:
My point in waiting a bit is to be more certain that our gamble will pay off, that if we go full-military it is because GWT will win out in the long run without our intervention or that they'll stalemate and we'll win the economic race. We must therefore know what will happen with this initial GWT advance, whether it succeeds or not.
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Please do not think I'm not getting this reasoning. I am. It's just that I'm very pessimistic we're can have as much influence as you think we can. Only a gamble has the potential to put us back into this game. Caution is a luxury only the strong can afford.
quote:
For the record we have been taking steps to prepare for an invasion if necessary. We will have 7-8 ships ready by the time of magnetism even if we keep our current super-builer plans.
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That many ships will not do much, especially if the plan is to split them all among three targets. For the plan to start making sense, we need double that number of ships, and consequently double that number of land units. That means (are you ready for this?) cutting our REX phase short and switching to military.
quote:
Another issue which we have more or less been in agreement is that we need to get Astrology ASAP and then take a route towards Navigation as that will allow us a crossing. Current debate is whether we should rush for Navigation or slow down our research a bit.
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In both cases (full-war, super-builder) I think we should beeline for Navigation and forget Magnetism for now. The only thing Magnetism gives us is an extra 1 capacity per ship. While nothing to scoff at, is it really worth all the Commerce required to 4 techs? I bet we could rush enough Caravels with that money to make up for the lack of Galleons.
Furthermore, Magnetism brings CGN (and GWT) one tech (Chemistry) closer to Military Tradition, something we want to avoid if we want them to remain at a stalemate. Cavalry has that funny tendency to end games quick.
Dominae
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13-02-2004 03:35
brilliant
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