17-02-2004 20:57									#1
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This has been discussed quite a while ago, but never polled: "Should we try to raise sea levels?"
It would be done by crawling many minerals to one base (such as Gardens Point for PUT), and as a consequence cause ecological damage, fungal pops and ultimately a sea level raise. This is a relatively longterm project - 20 years before it has its full effect - but that doesn't matter IMHO. If the Hive-Drones attack us soon, nothing can't help us anymore anyway. But if they indeed will wait until they have Fusion Power to attack us, as buster claims he will do in his mail to "Pirate Maniac", it will make a difference. So it's worth a try IMHO.

The main three advantages of a sea level raise are in my opinion:

1> Naval combat becomes more important. And since we have the Maritime Control Centre, with free naval yards and +2 movement points, we have an advantage.
2> Land and air combat becomes a bit less important. So the Hive and Drones will have less use of their Secrets Projects the Cloudbase Academy, the Command Nexus and (soon probably) the Citizen's Defence Force.
3> Drop units can't drop into sea bases! So they wouldn't be able to use the chop&drop tactic (build lots of choppers and a few drop units and blitzkrieg your way through the enemy empire) against us.

Previous discussion with other arguments was done in this thread.

	17-02-2004 21:04									#2
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I'm in favour, but if one base with an overdose of minerals is sufficient, why hasn't this happened already? We more or less now that Hive has a much higher production output then other factions and still the event hasn't occured. How can we then stimulate this? Gardens Point already has 34 minerals a year, how much more is needed then?

	17-02-2004 23:34									#3
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Lots of fungal blooms are necessary to do so. The Hive has many high production bases, but IIRC they at most produce 20 minerals or so. Slight eco-damage, but not enough yet to cause many fungal pops I guess. Gardens Point caused a fungal pop last year IIRC. Don't know how many there have been before that though. The chance every year that Gardens Point gets a fungal bloom is around 25-30% IIRC, so we'll see a few more blooms there I suppose. I'd like to try and rehome as many PUT crawlers as possible to Gardens Point to increase eco-damage, and also create a high-mineral base (Logic Loop?) in CyCon to do the same there, so hopefully we'll see results soon then. (Gardens Point and Logic Loop would then also be perfect bases for building up our military btw)

	17-02-2004 23:58									#4
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O yes, that last thing occured to me immediately

Do I get my way then and may LL then have an Aerospace Complex or even a Command Center?

	18-02-2004 01:17									#5
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Voted yes. Maniac was clear enough in the first post.

	21-02-2004 23:50									#6
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*bump*

Another failing poll.

	22-02-2004 04:01									#7
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Voted yes. Looks like fun

	22-02-2004 04:15									#8
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I voted no. Much of our teritory is on marsh-land, thus we loose benefits of it.

I have impression that Hive and maybe Drones too, also Believers and Data Angels are on high levels above sea. It will not affect them so much as us. Please consider it - loosing rivers, land for sensor arrays, mineral production from rocky terrain. Maybe the raising sea should occur later?

	22-02-2004 20:48									#9
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quote: Originally posted by mart7x5 I have impression that Hive and maybe Drones too, also Believers and Data Angels are on high levels above sea. It will not affect them so much as us.

I am indeed becoming increasingly worried about that. The Gods have not blessed our CC-PUT-PEACE territory, which is all lowlands. The Drone mini-map in the lower right of this screenshot -> (http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Maniac/cyc-54.jpg) shows that most of their bases are coastal, so they would probably suffer greatly from a sea level raise. However the Gods have blessed the Hive with lots of highlands, so they might remain largely untouched. A possible sea level raise needs some preparations and thus isn't yet for tomorrow though, so we still have lots of time to redecide if more information about the Hive & Drone maps would indicate a sea level raise is not in our advantage.
If a majority would vote against a sea level rise though, I would suggest instead to build a bunch of sea formers and move them to the northern PUT territory to lower the land and submerge some northern PUT bases (after they've built a pressure dome of course). Those bases will lose half their population that way (though they aren't really populated), but it at least gives them protection against drop units, which IMHO cannot be overestimated for a succesful defence against a Drone Blitzkrieg.

	22-02-2004 22:54									#10
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Well now we are talking about extreme and inovative way of defence.

	23-02-2004 01:48									#11
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Submersing bases is indeed extreme. The same goal can be reached by building Aerospace Complexes in those 'threatened' bases. Drop units can't drop near such protected bases in my experience.

	23-02-2004 15:04									#12
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Jesus - they have the CBA as well now too? What a difference a couple of weeks makes...

Is it a given that any base that is submerged loses half its pop even if it has a Pressure Dome? That's a new one on me.

This is an interesting suggestion.... How will this affect our production etc. capacity. I know that Tidal harnesses are great for energy, but I am a little worried about production, especially with the Hive supposedly being unaffected by small-scale sealevel changes. Could we at the same time prepare to raise our lands in key areas so we don't lose our production?

	23-02-2004 17:04									#13
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If it has a Dome, it won't lose pop. Submersing those bases isn't a bad idea, unless it also kills the Borehole Cluster.

	23-02-2004 18:53									#14
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Jesus - they have the CBA as well now too? What a difference a couple of weeks makes...

Yes, and probably CF in the next few turns as well.
We think that the deal between Hive and Drones was CBA for the Hive, CF for the Drones.

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Could we at the same time prepare to raise our lands in key areas so we don't lose our production?

Unlikely, not enough formers for that I suppose. But triggering a sealevel rise is still turns away. So time to prepare.

	23-02-2004 19:53									#15
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Geo: The deal was that, but there has been tension, and they're not sure if they'll stick to it. The Drones were given the Cloning Vats too, but we need to get that first.

	23-02-2004 20:15									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Geo: The deal was that, but there has been tension, and they're not sure if they'll stick to it. The Drones were given the Cloning Vats too, but we need to get that first.

Ah, that's disturbing news. I thought the deal was Hive: CBA, LV & AV, and the Drones: CF & CDF or something. So the Drones are also promised the Cloning Vats? This makes it even more urgent we aim for that project as fast as possible (by stealing tech hopefully instead of having to research them ourselves). Btw, I didn't know the Hive were unsure about sticking to their SP deal. That's positive news. When did you learn that information? Way back in that chat in January with Enigma_Nova while he still was an official representative of the Hive?

	23-02-2004 20:38									#17
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A little later, than that, but still a few weeks ago. The Hive and Drones relationship re: SPs was straining. I'm not sure of it's state now.

However, in order to get the CV, would it be an idea to go 80% research, and then switch to Ec when we get Bioeng. We need to beat the Drone/Hive to it. Also we need the Supercolider for PUT.

	23-02-2004 20:50									#18
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Drogue:

quote: Originally posted by Drogue The Hive and Drones relationship re: SPs was straining. I'm not sure of it's state now.

IMHO the Hive wouldn't have broken pact with us if they weren't confident now of their relationship with the Drones. Also perhaps the Hive-Drone relationship being straining was just a temporary consequence of Enigma_Nova's actions, and we all know he ended up in the recycling tanks.

quote: However, in order to get the CV, would it be an idea to go 80% research, and then switch to Ec when we get Bioeng.

The Cloning vats has Biomachinery as a prerequisite though, and not Bioeng. So besides Bioeng we also still need to research MMI, PolySoft, OptComp, AdapDoc, AdvMilAlg, RetroEng first. Still a long way off.

GeoModder:

quote: The same goal can be reached by building Aerospace Complexes in those 'threatened' bases. Drop units can't drop near such protected bases in my experience.

Does that also still count when there are no units present anymore in the base? If so, aerospace complexes could indeed be sufficient defense.
Though I read on CGN there's a bug that the aerospace complex only prevents rivals dropping units if you have a vendetta with that faction. So the Drones could first drop a bunch of units right next to all the northern PUT bases, and only then declare war with a massive chopper attack, followed by those drop units capturing the bases. If the northern PUT bases changed into sea bases, it would become more difficult for the Drones: besides the drop ability all the capturing units would also need the amphibious ability.

Archaic:

quote: If it has a Dome, it won't lose pop

Ah, I'll have to test that. From my experience with testing the Mars scenario (see signature) and trying to submerge as many AI bases as possible I seemed to remember that bases without pressure domes are completely destroyed, while those with domes lose half their population.

	23-02-2004 23:52									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac [ Does that also still count when there are no units present anymore in the base? If so, aerospace complexes could indeed be sufficient defense. Though I read on CGN there's a bug that the aerospace complex only prevents rivals dropping units if you have a vendetta with that faction. So the Drones could first drop a bunch of units right next to all the northern PUT bases, and only then declare war with a massive chopper attack, followed by those drop units capturing the bases. If the northern PUT bases changed into sea bases, it would become more difficult for the Drones: besides the drop ability all the capturing units would also need the amphibious ability.

Yes, it prevents even when bases are empty (almost 100 percent sure). What did you think with your last sentence? They can`t drop into sea so why would they need amp pods abbility also?

	24-02-2004 00:32									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Does that also still count when there are no units present anymore in the base?

Don't know that for sure. Just an old SP memory that I couldn't airdrop near AeroComplex protected bases, but Obstructor seems to think so.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Though I read on CGN there's a bug that the aerospace complex only prevents rivals dropping units if you have a vendetta with that faction.

Never heard of the bug, might be interesting asking Googlie about dropping enemy units first before the first shot. Make some ruling about it.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac If the northern PUT bases changed into sea bases, it would become more difficult for the Drones: besides the drop ability all the capturing units would also need the amphibious ability.

No way José
Land units simply can't drop into seasquares, whatever ability they possess. And they simply can't drop directly in an empty enemy base as well.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Ah, I'll have to test that. From my experience with testing the Mars scenario (see signature) and trying to submerge as many AI bases as possible I seemed to remember that bases without pressure domes are completely destroyed, while those with domes lose half their population.

No, only small bases are destroyed, those with a bit higher population remain, lose half the population and get a free pressure dome. And those with domes are save and sound. Believe me, I made it...

	24-02-2004 00:46									#21
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quote: Originally posted by obstructor What did you think with your last sentence? They can`t drop into sea so why would they need amp pods abbility also?

quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Land units simply can't drop into seasquares, whatever ability they possess.

What I was thinking of was that the Drones could drop a unit not in but right next to a sea base, and then, having amphib ability, move into the empty base.

	24-02-2004 00:53									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac What I was thinking of was that the Drones could drop a unit not in but right next to a sea base, and then, having amphib ability, move into the empty base.

O, that. Still, with a Aerospace Complex around, they shouldn't be.
And, with the PUT bases so closely build together, not all of them need an Aerospace Complex.

But I check the pressend turn now first...

	24-02-2004 00:54									#23
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So you meant that? But AC will protect us still. Too bad Drones got the MMI first.

	24-02-2004 02:04									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac The Cloning vats has Biomachinery as a prerequisite though, and not Bioeng.

True

quote: Originally posted by Maniac So besides Bioeng we also still need to research MMI, PolySoft, OptComp, AdapDoc, AdvMilAlg, RetroEng first. Still a long way off.

Then let's get researching. Either we need to attack them quickly (so credits for building) or we need the CV, IMHO.

	24-02-2004 02:38									#25
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Can`t we steak MMI without restarting war?

	24-02-2004 05:42									#26
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder O, that. Still, with a Aerospace Complex around, they shouldn't be. Originally posted by obstructor So you meant that? But AC will protect us still. Too bad Drones got the MMI first.

Aerospace complexes will only suffice if exploiting that bug I mentioned earlier isn't allowed. Hopefully we'll get clarity on that.

	24-02-2004 13:14									#27
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It's not a bug. The game assumes that your allies wouldn't drop troops in and suddenly declare war. It's a "feature".

	24-02-2004 15:42									#28
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quote: Originally posted by obstructor Can`t we steak MMI without restarting war?

In the assumption you mean 'steal', no need, PUT haves it in 3 turns.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Hopefully we'll get clarity on that.

The question is posted to the god(s ) then?

quote: Originally posted by Drogue Then let's get researching. Either we need to attack them quickly (so credits for building) or we need the CV, IMHO.

Pls, not another war with a human player, just let's research this.

	24-02-2004 22:52									#29
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder In the assumption you mean 'steal', no need, PUT haves it in 3 turns.

But why not steal it? Then we can have sth else in three turns. And we are lagging behind so we need every turn we can get.

	25-02-2004 00:37									#30
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quote: Originally posted by obstructor But why not steal it? Then we can have sth else in three turns. And we are lagging behind so we need every turn we can get.

Impossible, we can't get a probe team at Busters doorstep in 3 turns.
All those Librarians have only 1 movement point as well, and no nautic transport is available.