19-02-2004 02:22									#31
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quote: Time will take care of that. I mean, most of the radical imams were born abroad and hopefully things aren't that bad in the EU that people born and raised there will turn into hatespewing radical imams.

good luck with that.

naive fools

	19-02-2004 02:23									#32
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The thing that annoys me about the danish immigration policy is that they don't have the sense to be properly hypocritical about it. Here is sweden the Social Democrats have a consistent policy to keep the blackies out as much as possible, but they do it while presenting a sunny humanitarian face to the world. The danes have similar policies but they're explicit about what they mean (ie. that they're conservative, xenophobic racists who hate other cultures), which makes them a much easier target to attack.

	19-02-2004 02:26									#33
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this is basically a DUH policy

hey you know what!??! we shouldn't allow mass-murderers to immigrate to our coutnry! OMFG@ I'm ABRILLIATN!

	19-02-2004 02:29									#34
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Ollie, as far as I'm aware:

The law in question does not prohibit the marriage of a Dane to a foreigner (that would be absurd). To my understanding, there's nothing stopping me from marrying, say, an American woman. The thing is, she's no longer automatically granted the right to come to Denmark and live with me just because she's my wife. There are now a bunch of criteria that must be met.

Naturally, the Danes won't mind the fact I'm bringing home an American wife. The law is solely established in order to prevent the influx of backwards foreigners to Denmark. If you're a Scandinavian and/or European Union citizen, there's no problem, though. And due to EU rules and regulations, we are to secure the free movement of persons across EU borders which is why some couples have gone across the bridge and lived the relevant period of time in Sweden before they legally head back for Denmark. That's totally legal, I think.

Snapcase damnit! I was expecting you to flame us uncontrollably on this one! I had all sorts of trolls prepared for your arrival to this thread and this is what I get?

	19-02-2004 02:37									#35
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I was just trying to be cool and cynical.

Right, flame:

I'm stuck wondering exactly how many ****ing radical islamist imams have applied for visas in Denmark. I'd bet it's a figure that approaches zero. This law is a carefully calculated move from the slimy, people's-party-supported Danish government to foist crass and baseless islamophobia on the nation, a vile piece of propaganda with no purpose other than self-aggrandizement. I think we should follow Michael Moore's suggestion and throw Denmark out of Scandinavia.

There you go.

	19-02-2004 02:39									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed I think we should follow Michael Moore's suggestion and throw Denmark out of Scandinavia. There you go.

Wow, he really said that?!? He did?

	19-02-2004 02:40									#37
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I'll counter-troll soon. Hang on.

	19-02-2004 02:45									#38
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Damn, my counter-troll was supposed to be based around a picture of (Danish People's Party leader) Pia Kjærsgaard baking cookies for Christmas and accompanied by the question "Does this look like a woman who could do harm", but I have nowhere to upload the amazing picture.

	19-02-2004 03:02									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Monk Wow, he really said that?!? He did?

Apparently, in his latest book.

	19-02-2004 03:03									#40
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OMG OMG, ISLAMOPHOBIA!!! IT'S EVIL!!!!!!



I hate Islam. I hate all religions, but Islam is currently the biggest thorn in the world's collective ass.

I hope that the governments of europe, and generally, the world, will fight Islamist propoganda, and cleans it away from the minds of countless poor bastards that believe it.

Same goes for judaism, and christianity, but christianity in europe isn't that much of a problem. Hell I am sure that more people visit mosques than churches, in europe.

It's really funny that Bucky the Feminist is protecting Islam, though. What won't we do in the name of moral relativism, eh?

luckily, more and more europeans realize the true nature of the situation. These are not nazis. they're not racist. They're people that are worried about the return of the scourge of opressive religion to the european soil. some of them even open websites.

http://contrelislam.org

Unsurprisingly, this comes from France. The country in which the situation is the most dire. people are worried that what we have will be lost, our freedoms, and our rights. It must be some very tough decision to vote for Le Pen. But sadly, no other politician has shown any desire to stop this.

Of course, Le Pen is not the answer. Le Pen is a hateful racist. there are no politicians in france that are willing to pick up the banner of embracing the values of personal freedom.

There was one such politician in the Netherlands. It was there that the cat was out of the bag, sort to speak. You couldn't just say that this guy was a Nazi, a racist scumbag, or else. This was a person who cherished personal freedoms, was openly gay, and was not a racist. He was killed, but his bold stance has made an irreversible impact.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3496961.stm




Rant over. we now return to our regularly scheduled programming.

	19-02-2004 03:10									#41
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quote: racist.

They're not racist, they're just freedom-haters.

Any human, no matter who they are, has the right to think anything they want, and to express that in any way. (This stops when you start infringing on others' rights, like, for example, violent mass-murder would not be allowed.)

I have no problems with restricting criminals. But it isn't a crime to think. No matter what it is you're thinking.

quote: The changes would require clerics to prove educational qualifications and financial self-sufficiency.

Only if this change is also made for every immigrant or no immigrants. Otherwise a big to this policy.

	19-02-2004 03:14									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel There was one such politician in the Netherlands. It was there that the cat was out of the bag, sort to speak. You couldn't just say that this guy was a Nazi, a racist scumbag, or else. This was a person who cherished personal freedoms, was openly gay, and was not a racist. He was killed, but his bold stance has made an irreversible impact.

Good point.

	19-02-2004 03:14									#43
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quote: Any human, no matter who they are, has the right to think anything they want, and to express that in any way. (This stops when you start infringing on others' rights, like, for example, violent mass-murder would not be allowed.)

A fricking libertarian.

So, should I be able to teach my children that violent mass-murder is ok? I am not infringing on anyone's rights? and this is the problem here, the passing down of that filth from generation to generation.

	19-02-2004 03:19									#44
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quote: changes would require clerics to prove educational qualifications and financial self-sufficiency.

I'm leery of such a policy. What would constitute 'radical' in the eyes of the EU? I could see them easily going far beyond advocating violence in order to dismiss an Imam.

In fact, I can easily see this leading to the outright barring of all Islamic people due to the fact that they are radical.

	19-02-2004 03:23									#45
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Following your Pim Fortuyn reference A-man, I feel like making a very important point about Danish politics to any foreigners who might be interested.

Fortuyn said very accurately that the problem of the Muslims was that they had not gone through an Enlightenment Age and he accused Islam for not respecting some universal human rights such as his right to be a homosexual. This is not the road taken by the Danish People's Party whose dislike of Islam seems to be rooted in the fact that the Muslims don't eat pork, don't celebrate Christmas and don't appreciate that Jesus died on the cross for our sins

	19-02-2004 03:27									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I'm leery of such a policy. What would constitute 'radical' in the eyes of the EU?

I'm not going to comment on your point but I must point out that EU policies do not dictate Danish immigration policy, partly because of our four opt-outs vis-à-vis our European commitment.

	19-02-2004 03:28									#47
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Oh, and Ollie: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2057594.stm

	19-02-2004 03:29									#48
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Monk, u da man. The problem isn't that people wear different clothes, listen to different music, and eat different food. The problem lies in the different values.

It's very sad to hear that the Danish People's party chose this positive position for all the wrong reasons. I just hope that there are more politicians throughout europe that aren't racist/religious nutjobs, and have the balls to stand up, and point out the problem.

	19-02-2004 03:31									#49
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You can dress it up in any fancy self-justification you want, Az, but the fact reamins that your policy is designed to futher remove power from a disempowered group in society, and is thus right-wing. Not that I've ever doubted communism was anything but. Your personal freedom is the personal freedom to be a white, male, middle class, healthy liberal-abstract "individual", quite probably following the whims of the market too, I'm sure.

	19-02-2004 03:35									#50
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quote: partly because of our four opt-outs vis-à-vis our European commitment.

True, but I still see things headed that way.

Just sticking up my finger in gaging the wind.

	19-02-2004 03:39									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed You can dress it up in any fancy self-justification you want, Az, but the fact reamins that your policy is designed to futher remove power from a disempowered group in society, and is thus right-wing. Not that I've ever doubted communism was anything but. Your personal freedom is the personal freedom to be a white, male, middle class, healthy liberal-abstract "individual", quite probably following the whims of the market too, I'm sure.

Feel free to continue the discussion with some actual answers to the issues at hand.

	19-02-2004 03:40									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Time will take care of that. I mean, most of the radical imams were born abroad and hopefully things aren't that bad in the EU that people born and raised there will turn into hatespewing radical imams. good luck with that. naive fools

An alternative would be to ban all muslims. We get more than enough immigrants from Eastern Europe and Africa anyway. But of course that wouldn't be very fair.

	19-02-2004 03:41									#53
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How about not allowing people to teach their children crazy bile?

I mean, I was lucky that I was thinking independently enough as a kid. Otherwise, I'd think that gay people are sick, women are stupid, etc. etc.

Not all kids are that lucky.

	19-02-2004 03:43									#54
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It's arse and balls. Look at it this way- do you trust your citizens or do you fear them?

Denmark has Muslim citizens. This law, as described in the article, is aimed at Islamic clerics. In other words, it's a tacit message to their Muslim citizens saying "We don't trust you."

Bingo! Instantly disaffected citizens, who now probably become more likely to be susceptible to such propaganda in the first place. Extra ammunition to the anti-Islamic factions as a result!

What do you get? A vicious circle going straight for its own jugular via its arsehole.

	19-02-2004 03:52									#55
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You presume that the status-quo is good, and the muslims are really integrating into the european society, which is, of course, not true.

The truth is, that the muslims are creating their own communities, and are preserving their own culture, with no organized external pressure to integrate and assimilate.

I am an immigrant myself. But here, under the auspice of "we're all one people", a massive integration effort is launched. Still, the value world of ex-soviet citizens, and the average Israeli citizen are very far apart, and with the large immigrant communities, some people, mostly the older generations, are locked inside their communities. Their kids are more like the Israeli citizens. But even this is not always the case.

In europe, the integration effort is MUCH weaker, and the differences are bigger. And the sense of superiority by both sides are also large. All the symptoms show that those people will not integrate very well. And that's a timebomb.

	19-02-2004 03:58									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel You presume that the status-quo is good, and the muslims are really integrating into the european society, which is, of course, not true.

Wrong on both counts. If you're going to attempt to work me out, you neec to make more effort. Try again from a different perspective.

	19-02-2004 04:02									#57
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The issue at hand, Az, is that you want to oppress muslims. No more, no less.

	19-02-2004 04:05									#58
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Congratulations, btw- you've progressed from "I don't want just my own culture, I want universal values" to at least admitting your cultural chauvinism. That's a step forward.

	19-02-2004 04:12									#59
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The strange thing is that Winston hasn't posted anything yet.

	19-02-2004 04:15									#60
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He's being held at the border.