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Tripledoc
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Well, from what I have read the law is already being criticized because it allows 'thought control'. That is a Muslim preacher is no longer allowed to refer to certain passages of the Koran, which might be considered inappropriate.
Instead I think that if the authorities really want to follow through on this they should rip out pages from the Old Testament, The New Testamenat, and the Koran.
For instance if a Muslim preacher teaches that Christians are bad, that does not neccesarily mean that the listener will bomb them, no more than if a Christian teaches that Muslims are bad (which BTW has happened many times over), the Christians will bomb them ( which they have).
The end game will be that Marxist historians will be banned, because after all it is thought that all they want to do is to kill Capitalists.
Remember first they came after the Jews, and we did not protest, then they came after the Communists, and we did not protest, then they came after me, but there were then no one left to protest.
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yavoon
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
It's sad that so many people believe that it's ok to oppress people one disagrees with. |
or oppress ppl out of fear ala japanese internment camps.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:34
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Az:
As much as I'd like to see religion removed from this planet for good, I quite disagree with you. It's not in the nature of Islam to be worse than the rest. For several centuries during their golden age, the Muslims were the most modern, most flourishing, most trailblazing people in the world, wwhereas the Christians were in the darkest obscurantism. Even though things are no different, it doesn't mean there is an innate ability in Islam to be worse than the rest.
I think we cannot and should not exclude worship. What we should do, however, is to monitor the political implications of this worship, especially the political agitators who get the help of the little voices in people's heads.
I agree with Laz on this one: if we consistently reject our Muslims (or any other rejected minority for that matter), we'll end up antagonizing them and radicalizing them. I am all for integrating them, but if by "integration" you mean "replacement of their old culture by the local one", then I think it is doomed to failure in this day and age of internet, of satellite TV, etc.
What we Europeans need to accept, is that one can be both Muslim AND French / German / Italian / Spaniard / Dane / whatever. I have encountered many French people in my hometown who still feel "not at home" where there are mosques, where people celebrate the Aid el-kebir, where you see halal meatshops etc.
It took us time to accept Jews as being real French citizens. With the population pressure, we obviously need to accept Muslims the same, without pointing our fingers at them on the grounds they are Muslim. I sure hope we won't need an holocaust to that effect.
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Wrong on both counts. If you're going to attempt to work me out, you neec to make more effort. Try again from a different perspective. |
 work you out?
quote:
Congratulations, btw- you've progressed from "I don't want just my own culture, I want universal values" to at least admitting your cultural chauvinism. That's a step forward |
Where's that? Or do you consider my adherance to the values of personal freedoms shauvenistic? I am sorry, then, just call me Mr. Shauvenist. If you think that I am going to respect other people's opinions just because they exist, sorry.
quote:
As much as I'd like to see religion removed from this planet for good, I quite disagree with you. It's not in the nature of Islam to be worse than the rest. For several centuries during their golden age, the Muslims were the most modern, most flourishing, most trailblazing people in the world, wwhereas the Christians were in the darkest obscurantism. Even though things are no different, it doesn't mean there is an innate ability in Islam to be worse than the rest.
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OMFG, it seems that people have problems with reading comprehension. I am not saying that Islam is the worst religion. I am saying that religion is bad, and the muslims are the only ones from the monotheists seriously clinging on to theirs. some Americans make me worry too, though, but no nearly as much as the pov of the average muslim person.
quote:
I think we cannot and should not exclude worship. What we should do, however, is to monitor the political implications of this worship, especially the political agitators who get the help of the little voices in people's heads. |
Hey, I never said that an adult individual cannot worship whoever the **** they want to, it's their spare time, They can do whatever they want to.
a) They have no right to try and change the rules of our society, just because their imaginary friends said so.
b) They have no right to infest the brains of their kids with that filth.
quote:
It took us time to accept Jews as being real French citizens. With the population pressure, we obviously need to accept Muslims the same, without pointing our fingers at them on the grounds they are Muslim. I sure hope we won't need an holocaust to that effect.
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The difference is, Jews DID integrate into French society on the french society's terms, the moment they were declared equal. The muslims want their own terms, and the average french citizen doesn't feel like it.
Laz:
quote:
These things take time. Go back 1000 years and the natural state for Christian states was what we would now call violent fundamentalism.
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Yes. but the change of the european society from a deeply religious one to an almost completely secular one was ground-breaking. This will not be the case with Islam. It's not as if secular society is something unheard of. It's right next door. They're constantly exposed to it, but see it through a filter of deep conservatism, and superiority. I am glad that you agree that this change is necessary, but do we just let this pot stir itself, and wait for a thousand years of a wrong, and opressive society?
quote:
I have a number of muslim friends who pose no threat to anybody. Each generation becomes a little less radical, just like we Jesus-botherers, in fact. Trying to kick off another crusade will set the process back a few hundred years. |
I never said that all muslims pose a threat, or that anyone should go on a crusade. I am saying that our own societies must be protected against this scourge. the problem is not in the individuals, it's in the dynamics of their societies.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
Denmark has got some harsh critics from the Swedish Social Democrat goverment recently, due to the new immigration policies. But I can't see why Göran Persson at the same time is so silent about Finland. Denmark is trying to introduce an immigrant policy similar to what Finland always had. I remember when I lived in Finland 10 years ago, and heard on the radio news:
Finland will accept refugees. It is 200 people from former Yugoslavia who will arrive early next year...
This was told in September, at a period when 200 Yugo refugees arrived to Sweden with every ferry from Germany.
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True. But the general consensus is, people don't want many refugees here. People tend to think 'oh great, they are here to spend our tax money, this will do only harm to our current problems'. We believe in helping people in their countries (though we don't help them in their countries) rather than taking them in (which we don't).
Could something be done? I'm sure we could, but we won't I guess. I think the problem behind this is taxation. It brings the worst out of people. People read every news story or tabloid where it says a refugee got free dental care, free house, monthly support money etc. It pisses off people, because there are so many unemployeed. Is it their fault we have unemployment so high? No.. there are so few refugees here and immigrants, it doesn't play a factor IMO. But people still think it does.
What to do with radicals who are already EU members? Throw them in jail like we do. We have centers for refugees which they are kept in, to wait the decision if they can stay or not, which is likely to be NO. If YES, they'll get in, and some of the people who we see as problems, they will spend this process in jail. Not jail where there are criminals, but old jail, just for them. It's not very nice, and certainly not PC, but that's the way it goes here.
Even with such low acceptance of refugees, people still think many times that it's too much. If a refugee does crime, it will be in the newspapers for sure, I think it speaks for some attitudes. I wouldn't call it racism though. I'd call it jealousy because of the high taxation, that makes people ready to trash anyone who spends that money. Just like we hate rich people and give them 170 000 euro fine for speeding.
As for immigrants who come here to do a career, I wouldn't say there is any problems getting in. If you have a job, you'll get in for sure no problems. If you are EU citizen, you get in anyway.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
quote:
It took us time to accept Jews as being real French citizens. With the population pressure, we obviously need to accept Muslims the same, without pointing our fingers at them on the grounds they are Muslim. I sure hope we won't need an holocaust to that effect.
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The difference is, Jews DID integrate into French society on the french society's terms, the moment they were declared equal. The muslims want their own terms, and the average french citizen doesn't feel like it. |
Not exactly. For a long time, the Jews "integrated" very similarly to our current Chinese: working for other Jews, living in Jewish neighborhoods of their choice, standing up for the community etc.
Our Muslims are different: there was hardly a Muslim / Arabic community in France until recently. Immigrants went the official route, instead of being introduced by relatives. They have been mostly placed in impoverished neighborhoods by the authorities. They have been working for mainstream French bosses, with mainstream French colleagues, and their kids speak French with each other (the latter is completely different from actual communities such as the Chinese or the Turks).
Wrt Jews, from the mainstream society's POV, the Jews were still a different thing, with the ZOG and all that crap. Even in 1936, barely before the holocaust, generalities on the Jews (or rather "the Jew" as it was called) went galore, and you could even see newspapers' headlines such as "The Jew Blum [our prime minister of the time] did this and that".
The problem is that the French society refuses Muslims and Arabs just like it refused the Jews, despite most of the youth having tried hard to be full-fledged Frenchmen. Even today, the main sub-culture in the ghetto is hardly Muslim nor Arabic: it's French gangsta, with only a few words from Arabic origins (well, the fact we have many Blacks in our ghettoes does help in this regard).
If we continue to reject our Arabs outright because of the little cultural bagage they continue to carry (and radical Islam doesn't belong to it: it was imported recently, when Saudi Arabia understood there was demand here), we are doomed to further antagonize them, and further radicalize them.
If we advocate this course, we can vote Le Pen right now, because we'll be forcing them to have to leave.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:34
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Azazel, high unemployment, high taxation, the climate (Durrgh!), the lacking channels in cable, stupid girls, the fact that it takes few months for new movies to come in theaters from the US, high internet connection prices and some ISPs using their monopoly (owning all the freaking cables and networks) which is now under investigation YAAAAAAY I applaud this (justice!), the general alcohol problem and everything that comes with it, the lack of nuclear weapons, the prices of coca cola (AAAAAAAARGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!) and other products.
JUST TO MENTION FEW!
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Lazarus and the Gimp
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Whale-raping abomination
Aug 2000
time: 05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
Yes. but the change of the european society from a deeply religious one to an almost completely secular one was ground-breaking. This will not be the case with Islam. It's not as if secular society is something unheard of. It's right next door. They're constantly exposed to it, but see it through a filter of deep conservatism, and superiority. I am glad that you agree that this change is necessary, but do we just let this pot stir itself, and wait for a thousand years of a wrong, and opressive society?
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That was exactly the case in Europe 1000 years ago, where the practically secular English church was right next to the Cluniac reformers pushing for fundamentalism. In that instance it was the fundamentalists who won, but not for long-term. History is not that simple.
quote:
I never said that all muslims pose a threat, or that anyone should go on a crusade. I am saying that our own societies must be protected against this scourge. the problem is not in the individuals, it's in the dynamics of their societies. |
If you view groups of society en masse as a scourge, prepare to be whipped by it. That approach isn't solving the problem- it's exacerbating it. I find it really rather disturbing that you can label the societies of a huge chunk of the world as a "scourge". That's a bad mentality to hold.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
Azazel, high unemployment, high taxation, the climate (Durrgh!), the lacking channels in cable, stupid girls, the fact that it takes few months for new movies to come in theaters from the US, high internet connection prices and some ISPs using their monopoly (owning all the freaking cables and networks) which is now under investigation YAAAAAAY I applaud this (justice!), the general alcohol problem and everything that comes with it, the lack of nuclear weapons, the prices of coca cola (AAAAAAAARGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!) and other products.
JUST TO MENTION FEW! |
All of this will be obviously solved if you lower taxes 
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our_man
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Glasgow, Scotland
Oct 2000
time: 05:34
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Well Laz, again that's another problem your country will have to deal with. It might be worth pointing out that they're not born extreme, they have to pick it up off someone else. I'd find it very hard to believe that a Muslim youth, surrounded by other Muslims who have no issues with the country they live in, would turn into a suicide bomber.
I state my point again. Your country has in the past, and probably still is, let in the wrong type of people. A charismatic Muslim preacher blows into town, tells dissaffected Muslim youth, "it's all the Christian's fault, go kill the infidels". Hey Presto! From one extremist, you now have a hundred.
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