19-02-2004 06:44									#31
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quote: LoA - I think you must have made a mistake reading the stats last year, I don't remember any problem with infinity and composite stats and I was paying attention. I suppose we could avoid composite stats, at least as much as possible. We could have Hits allowed, BB's and K's instead of WHIP, K/BB, and K/9 inn.

nah i remeber getting the shaft last year because I had David Wells who walks like 1 guy for every 20 Ks and the K/BB stat would be consistently off because 9 K/ 0 BB = 0 and instead of adding all the Ks and BBs up and then dividing, they would do the fractions and then add, which give syou messed up stats.

	19-02-2004 06:54									#32
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quote: I had David Wells who walks like 1 guy for every 20 Ks and the K/BB stat would be consistently off because 9 K/ 0 BB = 0

They'd make it INF, not 0.

	19-02-2004 07:35									#33
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Okay, my preferences for stats:

Hitting (9 total):
R
RBI
TB
SB
HR
SLG
OBP
BA
BB (no Times on Base? )

Pitching (8 total):
W
L
SV
HLD
K/9
TB allowed
ERA
WHIP

My theory... we have 20 roster spots total. I'll assume 11 are hitters, 9 are pitchers. The Win Shares system assumes that baseball is 48% offense, 52% defense. 11*.48/9*.52=1.12=~9/8. Therefore 9 hitting, 8 pitching. BS method, I know.

Roster changes: Weekly on Mondays
Minimum IP: 15/week

	19-02-2004 07:41									#34
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Blah. All these years without a DP...

	19-02-2004 07:49									#35
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quote: The Win Shares system assumes that baseball is 48% offense, 52% defense. 11*.48/9*.52=1.12=~9/8. Therefore 9 hitting, 8 pitching. BS method, I know.

Indeed, but I like you methodology .

I like your catagories, but I'd probably take out BB (OBP covers that) and Hld (damn useless stat ).

quote: no Times on Base?

Well OBP measures that .

	19-02-2004 08:04									#36
	Remove this text

Prefs:




Batters

Hits (H)
Doubles (2B)
Home Runs (HR)
Runs Batted In (RBI)
Stolen Bases (SB)
Walks (BB)
Strikeouts (K) (If we have walks, we need to have strikeouts too)
Total Bases (TB)
Fielding Percentage (FPCT)
Batting Average (AVG)
On-base + Slugging Percentage (OPS)

Pitchers

Innings Pitched (IP)
Wins (W)
Losses (L)
Saves (SV)
Home Runs (HR)
Strikeouts (K)
Total Bases Allowed (TB)
Earned Run Average (ERA)
(Walks + Hits)/ Innings Pitched (WHIP)
Strikeouts per Walk Ratio (K/BB)

	19-02-2004 08:05									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: no Times on Base? Well OBP measures that .

We have TB and SLG. By that logic, one of the two is redundant. ( well, sorta)

Though I agree with you that if I had to cut two categories, it'd be walks and holds...

	19-02-2004 09:57									#38
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I also am intrigued by the Fielding Percentage catagory, though I fear that would mean DH's would be severly undervalued (they'll always score 0 on that). Maybe that'll take the place of TB or SLG, but it's a BIG tradeoff.

	20-02-2004 02:06									#39
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bump

	20-02-2004 02:12									#40
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DH sucks.

	20-02-2004 02:13									#41
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True, but they do exist.

	20-02-2004 02:20									#42
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instead of fielding percentage, why dont you just have errors?

	20-02-2004 02:24									#43
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In half of baseball, for a relatively short time, they exist.
Makes no difference to me, as far as the setup of this league goes.

When's the draft?

	20-02-2004 02:27									#44
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quote: instead of fielding percentage, why dont you just have errors?

Because errors doesn't take into account how many chances they get AND gives DH's a decided advantage (they'll never make an error making them worth that much more).

quote: When's the draft?

When we set up all the rules . Hopefully I want to start it, at the latest on March 1st.

	20-02-2004 02:30									#45
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quote: Because errors doesn't take into account how many chances they get AND gives DH's a decided advantage (they'll never make an error making them worth that much more).

And excellent point.

	20-02-2004 04:43									#46
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*bump*

If I had to pick a fielding stat, it'd be Range Factor. But Yahoo doesn't offer it.

	20-02-2004 06:20									#47
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Ok, I restructued some of the catagories:

Batting (9):
Runs
HR
RBI
SB
BB
TB
FPCT (Fielding)
AVG
OPS

Pitching (8)
W
L
S
K
HLD
TB Allowed
ERA
WHIP

	20-02-2004 06:21									#48
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Berz hasn't signed up and if he does, we'll need one more. We have 8 currently.

	20-02-2004 06:25									#49
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why doesnt pitching have any BBs. And why not eliminate OPS and add strikeouts.

	20-02-2004 06:31									#50
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Pitching has WHIP, which does encompase BB's. And people like OPS so much (everyone else's list includes it) to remove it.

	20-02-2004 06:56									#51
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**** EVERYONE ELSE. YOU WILL BOW TO MY WILL. DOWN WITH THE MAJORITY

	20-02-2004 06:57									#52
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I tried that last year... it wasn't well recieved .

	20-02-2004 10:29									#53
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Why aren't "hits" included? We had 4 people ask for hits and only 1 who didn't have hits on their list.

	20-02-2004 10:47									#54
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What would they replace? I think TB covers hits and does it better.

Do you want to substitute hits for AVG?

	20-02-2004 11:16									#55
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I like that sig... quite appropo

Why sub? Homers overlaps with TB too so I don't see a problem with some overlaps, especially on the more important categories. If you want pitching to have 1 more category to keep the same "ratio" so to speak, we can add another to the pitching. I'd rather see singles, doubles, triples, and homers and do away with TB. But hits, homers, and TB is fine. I believe the people who wanted hits also wanted homers and TB...

I'd rather have hits than fielding but I don't see a need to do away with either, fielding at least adds a new relevant element to the game we didn't have last year (like holds). Maybe we could add IP just to reward pitchers who go deeper into games and to help deter the reliever strategy. 14 IP minimum still allows people to have 2-3 good starters and a bunch of relievers. Maybe do away with whip and have K's, BB's, and hits allowed. Argh, maybe not, that would create another incentive to have 2-3 starters and load up on quality relievers.

Maybe we should vote on your current settings and see how many people want "hits" added... How about that?

Btw, we had 12 people last year! Where are you folks? Who was here last year who hasn't posted yet?

	20-02-2004 11:19									#56
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If we add hits, we should add one more to pitching. We could replace WHIP with BBs and hits allowed, OR we could add HRs allowed or Complete Games or something.

Up to you guys.

And I concur about all the people not around... hmm, does vlad (the other vlad) post here anymore?

	20-02-2004 11:47									#57
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quote: We could replace WHIP with BBs and hits allowed

Yup, but we have to watch out for the reliever strategy. Adding BB's and hits allowed are incentives to keep IP down and limited to the best possible pitchers, maybe 2 top starters with closers and middle relievers to reach the 14 IP minimum. Let's see how the categories break down wrt the reliever strategy (con against the strategy and pro for it):

wins (con)
losses (pro)
saves (Not Applicable or pro - more relievers, more saves)
K's (con)
holds (NA or pro - see above)
ERA (pro)
TB (pro)
WHIP (pro)

As you can see the pitching is heavily weighted to the reliever strategy... Replacing whip with BB's and Hits allowed increases the incentive. The best way to eliminate the reliever strategy is to bump up the minimum IP. I think 16 would make it dangerous enough. Didn't we have 15 or 16 last year? There are just too many incentives to keep IP down, how about we bump the minimum up to 16 and add a category weighted to more starts and starters? I know you don't like IP but I think it creates an incentive to pitch and not try to flirt with the minimum by focusing on relievers. Besides, more IP does reflect pitchers who go deeper into games (quality starts)... If you can think of another category that is weighted to more IP to reduce the incentive for the reliever strategy, I'm all ears

My recommendations

Add hits (batting category)
Add IP (or another category to induce more starts(ers)
Bump the minimum up to 16

	20-02-2004 11:54									#58
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The problem with going higher is, once again, the All Star week.

Ugh.. and I'm still not sold on IPs. Just because you eat up innings doesn't make you a good pitcher. For example, Greg Maddux this year could win 18 games, but won't pitch much after the 6th inning in any start he makes.

	20-02-2004 11:55									#59
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Btw, I'll ask people at another forum I frequent...

	20-02-2004 11:59									#60
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FFZ perhaps?

I PMed Chris and vlad about it. We'd need one more if both joined.