20-02-2004 15:00									#61
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither That's because there is no real way of foiling a PM who commands loyalty through patronage or fear.

Sure there is. Vote him out in the next election.

The problem with an elected senate is we'll end up with the situation they have in the States. When one party controls the senate and the other controls the house, they blame each other for any problems.

With the Canadian system, we know who to blame or praise.

The Trudeau Liberals and the Mulroney PCers paid the price for their arrogence.

	20-02-2004 15:02									#62
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A question for Westerners: You say you have been ignored by the Liberals, and there's lots of truth in that.

What policies do you want the next government to do specifically for the west?

	20-02-2004 15:15									#63
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quote: Ben, the Reform Party was formed in 1987. That makes it close to 20 years ago and it was formed as a direct challenge to PC Party.

Close, but not quite 20 yrs.

I knew it was formed in 1987, but that is late 80's.

It didn't really get off the ground until the collapse of the Progressive Conservatives, and some of the Mulroney scandals.

quote: What usually happens is that the party rebuilds itself. But with the Reform-PC battles, it took 12 more years just to unite. They still have to pick a leader and form policies that are attractive to voters.

Again, they would have united probably in 2000 after the election defeat, had the Conservatives been amenable. They were the ones catering to the Conservatives, imploring them to stop the vote splitting. Every time they came, Joe Who refused. It is no coincidence that once Joe lost his party nomination, that they were finally able to unite.

That's going to be the interesting battle. Martin faces a tough dilemma. Call an election early while the Conservatives are just starting to get on their feet and work out policy, but get hammered on this corruption issue, or wait out the storm, and let the Conservatives get stronger.

quote: The Triple E idea is crazy. It makes no sense for the 125,000 people in PEI to have the same power as 4 million BCers.

Why? That's the deal in the US. It is a way to balance the concerns of PEI and the East in such a way as to give them some power back. Checks and balances, so to speak.

quote: The Distinct Society statement in the preamble merely recognised what is fact. Quebec is a distinct society with different laws, a different main language own laws, and a different culture. The accord did not contain any promises that Quebec would receive special benefits.

True, but again, the both accords were defeated strongly in the West. So again, I would be more eager to go with the historical record, rather than how we would read the reforms today.

	20-02-2004 15:24									#64
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quote: A question for Westerners: You say you have been ignored by the Liberals, and there's lots of truth in that. What policies do you want the next government to do specifically for the west?

1. End Federal Transfer payments between provinces.
2. Open up Free Trade on Lumber with the US.

That would really help BC and Alberta.

As for Saskatchewan, and Manitoba, I know much less, not having been to either province.

	20-02-2004 15:24									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi It didn't really get off the ground until the collapse of the Progressive Conservatives, and some of the Mulroney scandals.

Ben, in 87 the PCs had been in power for three years. They went on to win their biggest majority in 88, a year after the Reform Party was created.

Westerners decided to create the Reform Party at the height of the PC power.

In 1992, the Reform Party took about 50 seats that normally would have gone to the PCs and cost the right-wingers about a dozen seats by siphoning off support for the PCs thereby letting the Liberals win.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Call an election early while the Conservatives are just starting to get on their feet and work out policy, but get hammered on this corruption issue, or wait out the storm, and let the Conservatives get stronger.

He'll strike early and before the results of the investigation are finished. He'll be able to say that the investigation has an extremely wide scope and he's got nothing to hide (regardless of whether that is true).

He'll also sell himself as the guy who balanced the books and produced a surplus, thereby showing his "fiscal responsibility."

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi True, but again, the both accords were defeated strongly in the West. So again, I would be more eager to go with the historical record, rather than how we would read the reforms today.

Which two accords? There was only one referendum.

If you want to go with the historical record, then look at what the preamble said. There was no promises of special benefits. However, many people incorrectly thought there were.

Distinct society was incorrectly interpreted as meaning "better society"

	20-02-2004 15:24									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Sure there is. Vote him out in the next election. The problem with an elected senate is we'll end up with the situation they have in the States. When one party controls the senate and the other controls the house, they blame each other for any problems. With the Canadian system, we know who to blame or praise. The Trudeau Liberals and the Mulroney PCers paid the price for their arrogence.

That seems to be the magical answer for all that ails Confederation as far as Ontario can see. Why, wait for the next election and vote someone else in. Of course, why didn't we think of that!

However, it is somewhat unsatisfying for people who live in a province whose economy was devastated by the PET project of one ex-PM; it does little to satisfy unemployed forestry workers in BC whose federal government refuses to play hard-ball with the Yanks when the Yanks are throwing rocks at their houses; and people of the Maritimes should be enraged that the Feds presided over the destruction of the fisheries, but they somehow just take it.

The problem with a party whipped Parliament is that too much power is in the hands of one person and the cronies of that person. It was not intended to be that way, you know. Our institutions were laid with a Senate in mind to act as a check on the PM and the Commons. However, unfortunately, the lack of a mandate has castrated the Senate in the minds of Canadians, and in the minds of Senators themselves (in most cases).

Opponents of change are awefully fond of dredging up scare tactics based on the American Senate. Why should we have to follow the same lead? All that is desired is an end to the abuses of Ottawa based on the dictatorship of the PM. If the cries of the regions are not enough for you, what of the blatant theft of $100 million from the taxpayers? Something has to change, drastically. The longer this is ignored, the more likely the country is to implode.

	20-02-2004 15:26									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi 1. End Federal Transfer payments between provinces.

Well that's interesting. The only ones who will benefit from that are Alberta and Ontario.

BC has received transfer payments in recent years.

Personally, I think all Canadians deserve the same level of education and health care regardless of where they live. I have no problems with my tax dollars helping out the have-nots.

	20-02-2004 15:31									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai A question for Westerners: You say you have been ignored by the Liberals, and there's lots of truth in that. What policies do you want the next government to do specifically for the west?

Reform Parliament! Let the MPs rule, not just the PM's cabal.

Work the Senate into that and you would have some very happy Westerners. Transfer payments be damned!

	20-02-2004 15:34									#69
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither However, it is somewhat unsatisfying for people who live in a province whose economy was devastated by the PET project of one ex-PM;

Why is it unsatisfying. The system worked in 1984. Trudeau was kicked out, Mulroney came in and the NEP was cancelled.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither it does little to satisfy unemployed forestry workers in BC whose federal government refuses to play hard-ball with the Yanks when the Yanks are throwing rocks at their houses;

When the Americans are bent on throwing rocks, there is little that Canada can do.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither and people of the Maritimes should be enraged that the Feds presided over the destruction of the fisheries, but they somehow just take it.

One of the old Tory fishing minister, the one who lives in Penticton, said that everytime he tried to cut the fishing quotas, the fishermen screamed bloody murder. They even burned his effigy.

The Maritimers were a big part of the problem. The problem with the Liberals and the Conservative governments is that they caved in to regional concerns rather than standing up for the good of the country.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Opponents of change are awefully fond of dredging up scare tactics based on the American Senate. Why should we have to follow the same lead?

How do we avoid it?

	20-02-2004 15:45									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Why is it unsatisfying. The system worked in 1984. Trudeau was kicked out, Mulroney came in and the NEP was cancelled.

No, Tingkai, the system did not work. Alberta's economy was in ruins because of what the previous jackass did. Mulroney cancelled the policy that contributed to the melt down, but that did not stop the rapaciousness of Ottawa from initiating the melt down.

quote: When the Americans are bent on throwing rocks, there is little that Canada can do.

Bull, and you know it. Echos of letting them freeze in the dark mean anything to you? Would it surprise you to know that there are more than a few in Alberta in favour of monkeying with the natural gas supply that that treaty assures the Yanks of so long as the Yanks do not honour that treaty to such extreme effect to others in Canada?

Even short of such in you face tactics that would severely effect many Americans in the cold belt, the GoC could stand up and say, NO! This is bull ****, and you can expect no cooperation whatsoever on any issue so long as your administration is so fvcked up on trade with Canada! But that might effect auto exports from Ontario and Quebec, better not do that.

As for the Senate, maybe study the Lords, or any number of other bicameral systems out there other than the Yanks?

	20-02-2004 15:46									#71
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quote: Well that's interesting. The only ones who will benefit from that are Alberta and Ontario. BC has received transfer payments in recent years.

And BC is embarrassed to receive transfer payments. The current provincial Liberals are getting lambasted here because people want to lead Canada in growth, and not lag.

We don't want transfer payments.

quote: Westerners decided to create the Reform Party at the height of the PC power.

Not Westerners. Guys like Preston Manning. Most Westerners could care less, though I must admit, they were an attractive sell to rural areas that felt left out by the Conservatives. These rural areas are the ones that are returning 75% of the votes to the Canadian Alliance.

quote: In 1992, the Reform Party took about 50 seats that normally would have gone to the PCs and cost the right-wingers about a dozen seats by siphoning off support for the PCs thereby letting the Liberals win.

The PCs only won 2 seats across Canada! They just got hammered by everybody. To blame Reform is to dismiss major problems within the Conservative party. No party gets demolished in such an election just because of the Reformers.

quote: Which two accords? There was only one referendum.

Meech Lake and the Charlottetown Accords.

As for the interpretations, what matters not so much is the reality, but how people saw Distinct Society back then. And back then, they saw it as more benefits for Quebec, at least in the West.

	20-02-2004 15:59									#72
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quote: Why is it unsatisfying. The system worked in 1984. Trudeau was kicked out, Mulroney came in and the NEP was cancelled.

You realise what you are saying? Do you really want people to treat the Liberals, as they did the PC back in 1992? Ignore the issues, and they will come back to haunt the Liberals.

quote: When the Americans are bent on throwing rocks, there is little that Canada can do.

You going to say that to the unemployed Forestry worker?

Start some tariffs on the US for Oil, and for Natural Gas. Make the tariffs precisely as high as the Lumber tariffs. That's a start, and that is precisely what other countries do to the US, and they successfully get them to back down.

Otherwise, they will continue to laugh in our faces.

quote: The Maritimers were a big part of the problem. The problem with the Liberals and the Conservative governments is that they caved in to regional concerns rather than standing up for the good of the country.

That resolves problems like Miramachi, eh? Where natives have a constitutional right to fish, regardless of the surrounding conditions?

The Feds mismanaged the fisheries, and have presided over the collapse.

And you call Harper anti-Maritimes? Wow!

quote: How do we avoid it?

Why would we want to?

	20-02-2004 16:44									#73
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither No, Tingkai, the system did not work. Alberta's economy was in ruins because of what the previous jackass did. Mulroney cancelled the policy that contributed to the melt down, but that did not stop the rapaciousness of Ottawa from initiating the melt down.

What was the Churchill quote about it's awful, but it's less awful then the alternatives.

I agree that NEP was idiotic and should never have been done. I just not convinced that any other system would have prevented it.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Bull, and you know it. Echos of letting them freeze in the dark mean anything to you? Would it surprise you to know that there are more than a few in Alberta in favour of monkeying with the natural gas supply that that treaty assures the Yanks of so long as the Yanks do not honour that treaty to such extreme effect to others in Canada? Even short of such in you face tactics that would severely effect many Americans in the cold belt, the GoC could stand up and say, NO! This is bull ****, and you can expect no cooperation whatsoever on any issue so long as your administration is so fvcked up on trade with Canada! But that might effect auto exports from Ontario and Quebec, better not do that.

I like it. It would be nice to see a government that had the balls to stand up against the States.

BUT, can you imagine the howls of outrage that would come from Alberta if Ottawa slapped export tarriffs on natural gas and oil. They'd be rioting in the streets of Calgary!

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither As for the Senate, maybe study the Lords, or any number of other bicameral systems out there other than the Yanks?

What? You want to create nobility and appoint them to the senate?

Anyways, the Brit system is not much different from ours. They both operate from a basic belief of parlimentary supremacy.

	20-02-2004 16:55									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi You realise what you are saying? Do you really want people to treat the Liberals, as they did the PC back in 1992? Ignore the issues, and they will come back to haunt the Liberals.

Sure, if the people believe the Liberals are completely corrupt then they can kick them out of office and elect an NDP government.

That's the beauty of our system. It allows direct response. We know who is doing a good job and who is screwing things up.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi That resolves problems like Miramachi, eh? Where natives have a constitutional right to fish, regardless of the surrounding conditions?

The natives have that right. What Ottawa needs to do is sit down with them and reach an agreement that benefits all. What pisses the natives off is Ottawa coming around and trying to dictate to them about how they should manage the resource.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi The Feds mismanaged the fisheries, and have presided over the collapse.

The Feds, and remember it was the Tories who were at the helm when the alarm bells were going off, did mismanage the fish stocks.

But the east coast fishermen were not innocent bystanders. They were lobbying hard to keep the quotas high.

A lot of the fishermen there recognise that there is enough blame to go around.

	20-02-2004 20:06									#75
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither That's the question. How long will the people of Quebec support only one federalist party and thus assure either corruption, or alienation?

As I said, the Conservatives will have to show moderation, because Quebec is not at all right-wing. If they do their homework, they'll get a few odd seats in the next election, and they might be in for a comeback in 2009 (not necessarily many seats but maybe, say, the same % of votes as the liberals).

However, since I don't expect the Conservatives to go back to Mulroney-era policy anytime soon, the battle is likely to be Liberal-Bloc at least until the next referendum (either 2008 or 2012, when the PQ gets back in power).

That's why I consider Canadian politics to be a huge mess right now: Quebec is unwilling to participate in the Confederation, and it's needed to counterbalance the deep red Ontario.

If you permit me a comment: I believe Quebec's separation would be a benefit for everyone- Ontario, Maritimes, the West and Quebec. If ever someone in RoC showed initiative in discussing separation terms with Quebec, it could convince the moderate nationalists to vote YES and solve a lot of issues about Canadian politics.

	21-02-2004 00:20									#76
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quote: It would be nice to see a government that had the balls to stand up against the States.

Yes, it would be.

quote: What Ottawa needs to do is sit down with them and reach an agreement that benefits all.

No. What needs to happen is that Ottawa needs to come in and say, no one gets to fish. Period. Restrictions to one apply to all.

quote: it was the Tories who were at the helm when the alarm bells were going off, did mismanage the fish stocks.

True, they both have responsibility, but you can't just saddle the fishermen without also slamming the government.

	21-02-2004 00:26									#77
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OB:

quote: As I said, the Conservatives will have to show moderation,

And become Liberal-lite? No thanks. I think their platform is just fine the way it is.

quote: they might be in for a comeback in 2009 (not necessarily many seats but maybe, say, the same % of votes as the liberals).

In Quebec, or in all of Canada? If the former, I agree. If the latter, I say why wait? They can beat these Liberals this year.

quote: If you permit me a comment: I believe Quebec's separation would be a benefit for everyone- Ontario, Maritimes, the West and Quebec. If ever someone in RoC showed initiative in discussing separation terms with Quebec, it could convince the moderate nationalists to vote YES and solve a lot of issues about Canadian politics

No. I'm sorry. Seperation and not 'sovereignty association' will destroy the Quebec economy, and destroy the territorial integrity of Canada. It solves nothing, but again, revives the spectre of seperation which scares businessmen wanting to invest in a secure and stable Canada.

We like the folks in Quebec, even if we think they are spoiled brats out West who deserve everthing they can get on this corruption scandal.

	21-02-2004 05:39									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi OB: And become Liberal-lite? No thanks. I think their platform is just fine the way it is.

I was answering NYE, who asked about the Conservatives in Quebec. This is why

quote: In Quebec, or in all of Canada? If the former, I agree. If the latter, I say why wait? They can beat these Liberals this year.

My point was that they won't make a comeback in Quebec unless they move to the center.
I was not at all pretending to know what they should be, but rather observing what they'd need to gain seats in Qc.

quote: No. I'm sorry. Seperation and not 'sovereignty association' will destroy the Quebec economy, and destroy the territorial integrity of Canada. It solves nothing, but again, revives the spectre of seperation which scares businessmen wanting to invest in a secure and stable Canada.

Quebec has already been hurt by the separatist movement. The industries that had to leave have already done it. Besides, most are willing to accept a few years of economic incertitude.

My point here, I remember you, is that Quebec has not signed the Constitution, and, as such, has not officially recognized the authority of the federation. The separatists can't go forward because they were unable to gather a majority behind them, and even the federalists are not willing to join the Constitution as it is.

The federal will have either to accept a compromise, or accept Quebec's separation. You just can't keep going like the Constitution was not an issue. Meech and Charlottetown are considered to be 'sovereignty-association', BTW.
Statu quo is not an option.

quote: We like the folks in Quebec, even if we think they are spoiled brats out West who deserve everthing they can get on this corruption scandal.

I have nothing against RoC either. BTW, the idea that the scandal is 'Quebecois' is pure BS. Scandals have historically spoiled every party.

	21-02-2004 05:46									#79
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quote: that Quebec has not signed the Constitution, and, as such, has not officially recognized the authority of the federation. The separatists can't go forward because they were unable to gather a majority behind them, and even the federalists are not willing to join the Constitution as it is.

So what would be acceptable clauses to have Quebec sign the constitution?

	21-02-2004 06:03									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So what would be acceptable clauses to have Quebec sign the constitution?

I don't know. Meech rallied huge support in Qc, but was ill-received in RoC.
Charlottetown was considered insufficient by 55% in Quebec (I think the same % rejected it in RoC because they thought of it as being too generous).
Independance is still supported by 44-48% in Qc.

Since RoC doesn't seem willing to offer any serious compromise, I think independance is the better alternative (for everyone).

The thing is, Quebec's part in the federation, both in GDP and population, is decreasing. An agreement that would guarantee Quebec 25% of seats, 25% of senators, 3 out of 9 Supreme Court judges, is doomed to become unfair.
So, why waste time on useless stuff while we can solve the problem once and for all by giving Quebec outright autonomy and having some sort of EU federative pact with RoC?

	21-02-2004 06:17									#81
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quote: Since RoC doesn't seem willing to offer any serious compromise, I think independance is the better alternative (for everyone).

One could say the same for Quebeckers.

Why can't we hammer out a compromise? Surely now, that we have seen the problems of seperation, we can start to move beyond the problems of Meech lake and the Charlottetown accord.

Where we start is with the same question I asked you. What does Quebec want most from Canada?

I think a deal can be reached, and we can do far better than Mr. Chretien's legacy of obfuscated Clarity.

	21-02-2004 06:20									#82
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quote: So, why waste time on useless stuff while we can solve the problem once and for all by giving Quebec outright autonomy and having some sort of EU federative pact with RoC?

That's having your cake and eating it too. You are not going to get a good deal out of seperation. You will destroy your economy, and Canada's together. It is not an acceptable option, when compared to making compromises to remain in the Canadian federation.

People in Quebec are not being told this. They are not being told what will happen to them if they seperate, so they hold out for more. It would be a disaster for both.

	21-02-2004 07:36									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi One could say the same for Quebeckers.

Not really. Since they joined the federation at a time they were an oppressed minority of the British Empire, they have the right to reconsider their position, now that they are more respected.

quote: Why can't we hammer out a compromise? Surely now, that we have seen the problems of seperation, we can start to move beyond the problems of Meech lake and the Charlottetown accord.

Economic problems would not be that bad- maybe less GDP growth for a few years, but nothing like a depression. For many in Quebec, the issues of language, rights, and autonomy are much more important than growth %s.
If any politician in RoC ever had the courage to propose something like Meech, separatism would immediately die. Which leads us to:

quote: Where we start is with the same question I asked you. What does Quebec want most from Canada?

Again, most Quebecers (60+%) would take independance along with EU-style federation- (custom and monetary union, free trade agreement, tax harmonization, student mobility, etc.)

If that turns out to not to be feasible, here is what is needed to shut down most of the separatist movement:

-recognition of a fixed number of MPs, senators, and Supreme Court judges

-the exclusive power to set immigration policy

-a great diminution in federal taxation and power. In other words, the federal would withdraw from any field that falls within provincial competence when asked to, and hand the involved money to the province

-that any major international treaty must be agreed on by Quebec

I think this is the only way to put an end to the separatist movement. And I don't foresee any compromise close to this one anytime soon.

quote: I think a deal can be reached, and we can do far better than Mr. Chretien's legacy of obfuscated Clarity.

Maybe.

	21-02-2004 07:41									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi People in Quebec are not being told this. They are not being told what will happen to them if they seperate, so they hold out for more. It would be a disaster for both.

Don't worry, the federalists keep repeating this EVERYTIME, and the corporatists media never lose an occasion to beat on this dead horse.

The argument is as old as the moon, and most are tireing of it. Serious scholar studies tend to show the oppsosite: that separation would have a minor effect on the economy.

If RoC really thinka that it would be a disaster, they're not playing smart to avoid it. The lack of serious compromise is seriously fueling separatist support.

	21-02-2004 08:00									#85
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quote: Economic problems would not be that bad- maybe less GDP growth for a few years, but nothing like a depression.

What assumptions are you making? What kind of trade agreement do you presume to have with Canada?

Secondly, it's not just about Quebec. It is not fair to the Maritimes if Quebec leaves without them getting a say, as you cannot preserve the territorial integrity of Canada.

Third, what if you lose all of Northern Quebec because they wish to remain in Canada? What about the entire Island of Montreal? Canada is divisible, so is Quebec.

quote: would take independance along with EU-style federation- (custom and monetary union, free trade agreement, tax harmonization, student mobility, etc.)

No deal. What then?

quote: -recognition of a fixed number of MPs, senators, and Supreme Court judges

Set at 25%, rounded down? Deal.

quote: -the exclusive power to set immigration policy

Why? No province has that right to reject those who would otherwise be able to come into Canada? No deal, given the complications regarding terrorism requiring a common national immigration policy.

quote: -a great diminution in federal taxation and power. In other words, the federal would withdraw from any field that falls within provincial competence when asked to, and hand the involved money to the province

What areas? That's the sticky wicket for this one.

quote: -that any major international treaty must be agreed on by Quebec

Again, that would reduce the sovereignty of Canada, to serve beneath Quebec. We just got out from Britain, now treaties would need to be approved by Quebec. No deal.

	21-02-2004 09:29									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai What was the Churchill quote about it's awful, but it's less awful then the alternatives. I agree that NEP was idiotic and should never have been done. I just not convinced that any other system would have prevented it.

The point isn't if one system or another will prevent something that has already happened from happening, the point is how to reign in the dictatorial powers of the PM so that we are more likely to get better government.

Just about anything would be better than the status quo. Free MPs from party discipline on anything other than money bills (confidence) but how do you do that when the PM has to sign nomination papers and the party pays the freight for campaigns?

A Senate where Alberta's Senators could have at least had a chance to defeat the NEP would be better than a Senate where it was rubber stamped by the geriatric wings of the Liberals and Conservatives. They wouldn't stand in the way, even if they felt that maybe they should, because they lack mandates and that would be undemocratic.

quote: I like it. It would be nice to see a government that had the balls to stand up against the States. BUT, can you imagine the howls of outrage that would come from Alberta if Ottawa slapped export tarriffs on natural gas and oil. They'd be rioting in the streets of Calgary!

Well, there would be two alternatives. Slap an export tariff on the gas, not the oil, and require it to be paid above and beyond the market price for natural gas. Use those funds to defray the costs of supporting the people who have been dislocated by repeated breaches of NAFTA. I'm not sure if this is too likely to be practical.

The other alternative is simply to shut off the tap for gas. I am sure that the MidWest has other supplies, but the supply coming from Alberta is a major chunk of it no doubt. The price of gas would go through the roof in the United States in very short order, I would imagine. Those screams would very likely be heard in Washington.

Now, we are not allowed to do any such thing by the terms of NAFTA. Once we begin to supply them they are assured of the continued supply, at market prices. The point being though that the US is ignoring NAFTA and is in breach of the treaty. They have been at least 3 times as far as lumber is concerned, but somehow the home grown lumber lobby counts for more in Washington than honouring treaties with Canada does.

As a temporary measure to call American politicians' and administrators' attention to the fact that we're pissed off about their policies, I think Albertans could be convinced.

Screwing with oil wouldn't do anything. They have alternative supplies. Gas is where their attention can be commanded, and maybe Hydro.

quote: What? You want to create nobility and appoint them to the senate? Anyways, the Brit system is not much different from ours. They both operate from a basic belief of parlimentary supremacy.

I said, look at the Brit system, which we already have btw except that the Senate distains the use of their powers. Give the members of the Senate mandates that would allow them to use the powers the Constitution gives them. They already are cut out of money bills, that is the purview of the Commons, so the power of the purse would remain with the representatives of populations. Maybe though, give them powers to oversee expenditures, if they don't already have them, so as to be a check on just the sort of thing that just came to light.

The Senate is part of Parliament, btw. It should be the lesser power in the arrangement, but that does not mean that it should be the idiot child that simply nods in agreement.

	22-02-2004 01:49									#87
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Too much stuff to respond to.

One thing though is the idea that Layton would somehow increase BC NDP support is particularly bizarre. Given all the scandals in the BC provincial NDP in recent years the current scandal will have them running away from the NDP if anything.

	22-02-2004 02:30									#88
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NYE - We are the #1 supply of oil to the US (Saudi's are #2). Shutting that tap will get lot's of notice.

Re - the ongoing lumber dispute. I say take a similar approach. Stop ALL lumber/wood products shipments south (and compensate our workers in the meantime). The domestic US market cannot meet demand - hence skyrocketing prices on everything from paper to new houses. This too will be noticed in Washington rather quickly.

As has been said: We need a Fed gov with gonads. I don't blame the US for continuing to ignore treaties when there is no price to be paid for doing so. Time to give them a reason to play nice.

	22-02-2004 02:33									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Wezil NYE - We are the #1 supply of oil to the US (Saudi's are #2). Shutting that tap will get lot's of notice.

... and invaded.

	22-02-2004 02:35									#90
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quote: Re - the ongoing lumber dispute. I say take a similar approach. Stop ALL lumber/wood products shipments south (and compensate our workers in the meantime). The domestic US market cannot meet demand - hence skyrocketing prices on everything from paper to new houses. This too will be noticed in Washington rather quickly.

Why not?

As for invasions, been there, done that. You still failed.