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Dominae
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Almost half the participants in the MZO ISDG wanted to label Palace-jumping as an exploit. We polled/discussed the issue within this very team, and the results were far from conclusive (I believe the Consuls all thought it was okay, so it became law).
Again, whether I think it's an exploit or not is not really important. It's whether a majority of the teams at the UN think it's an exploit that matters. All of us have one vote in this team, and our communal voice in turn holds one vote at the UN. Even if our team were all agreed that it's not an exploit, it would still be necessary to bring it up at the UN in order to avoid situations like the one we're currently in.
Dominae
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:34
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Dominae,
Unfortunately, Apolyton has been planning on the palace jump for so long that to turn back now is impossible without replaying the entire game. To use the same logic as the CGN compromise (whereby the game is replayed from either the point at which planning begun or at which the clock absolutely CANNOT be turned back) would put us at about 50-60 turns and about 30-40 turns, respectively. The game is not going to be replayed over that long of a period.
EDIT:
Besides, the sheer amount of SACRIFICE that a civ needs to make in order to exercise a palace jump makes it an entirely different animal in my opinion.
Also... In essense, what a palace jump really does is move your corruption-reducing palace from a crappy home area (such as ours) to a better home area (such as GCA's). What it really does for Apolyton then is give us the same shot at having a productive and powerful empire that GCA had the moment they opened their first save and that we were denied by an inferior start. In terms of the shield expense, we have already expended quite a few shields constructing our forbidden palace in order to have a second core.
Last edited by Arnelos on 20-02-2004 at 11:37
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Dominae
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I would say that's very convenient.
I hope the other teams think Palace-jumping is okay...
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Arnelos
Besides, the sheer amount of SACRIFICE that a civ needs to make in order to exercise a palace jump makes it an entirely different animal in my opinion.
Also... In essense, what a palace jump really does is move your corruption-reducing palace from a crappy home area (such as ours) to a better home area (such as GCA's). What it really does for Apolyton then is give us the same shot at having a productive and powerful empire that GCA had the moment they opened their first save and that we were denied by an inferior start. In terms of the shield expense, we have already expended quite a few shields constructing our forbidden palace in order to have a second core. |
No one's questioning the work and precision involved in doing this properly.
I don't find it particularly compelling to justify jumping the palace like this to remedy a poor start. If I were GWT, I would respond "Well, you could have just built your forbidden palace at Apolyton prime like we did at Meiertopia (whatever the name is now)"
Sorry, I'm not trying to be a dick.
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:34
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do we know if GWT ever got a leader vs. Firaxis? If they did, they might have rushed it. I mean, Ruhrpot not only has a FP it has an Aqueduct and who knows what other improvements, something I question whether they could have built from scratch.
Last edited by Master Zen on 20-02-2004 at 12:58
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Arnelos
I thought we had determined that the GWT FP was in Ruhrprot (sp?), not Meiertopia... |
isnt ruhrport formerly meiertopia?
edit: doh, need to look at the map before speaking.
Last edited by asleepathewheel on 20-02-2004 at 21:11
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
I disagree that a palace jump is an exploit, even in the minds of the designers.
They have been ruthless in trying to make the game perform according to their concept with regards to corruption and the FP.
They have left palace jumping alone even though the formulae have been spelt out for ages on these and other forums. In other words, it is working as they intended.
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They've left alone a lot of exploits in the game for god knows what reason. And its hard to say, at least for me, that they have a "concept" (at least a unified concept) of corruption after all the recent shenanigans. I think they left palace jumping alone because there were more important things to fix and any formula they changed it to would be decifered fairly quickly by the fine minds here anyway. The palace has to go somewhere via some mechanics, why change it? Where there are mechanics are involved, they can be subtly manipulated or outright abused into an advantage.
If Firaxis has spoken publicly on this issue, I would love to see it. If they have told you personally, then I will take it as true, as I have nothing but respect for you.
quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Why is this being brought forward as an issue in this game on this forum? |
Why not? Its an issue that pertains to this game. I've certainly seen much less relevant stuff posted in here.
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:34
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I haven't heard a compelling reason to allow a palace move.
That said, and I shall refute myself, the reason why a palace move will be allowed in this game is because of our good friends GCA. A willing palace move has already been employed in this game. GCA abandoned their own capital and gained a new capital far away where they had no chance of legitimately building it. GCA/GWT has no reasonable complaint therefore, as one enabled the other to perform the act.
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
I'll refrain from inserting a smart-assed comment about assisted moves...
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Is that a personal shot at me, or am I paranoid?
quote:
Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Go ahead and bring it up. You really expect the respective teams to vote on the basis of whether they feel it's an exploit or not? At this point, it would be a vote based on who will benefit from USING it. This is all sh*t that needs to be decided before the game starts, not brought up in the middle here. Something we should learn from in all future games. |
I agree. Unfortunately there are so many tricks in this game (as in all games beyond checkers) ferreting them all out is impossible. And you have to know of a trick in order to discuss it, obviously. We certainly didn't know of what Lucky is doing until recently and it is possible that some rube website in the C3CISDG doesn't know of the palace jumping or the boat fortifying.
to expect anyone to be unbiased at this point, including ourselves is foolhardy.
quote:
Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
If it will ease the conscience of those on our team that are concerned, it is worth bringing up. I don't personally think it needs to be, but at the same time, in the spirit of team unity, we should to make those on our team wanting to feel better about the whole situation. |
 I don't necessarily think it should be brought to the public, rather to just mongoose. Not that his rulings have had any effect whatsoever this game, it might be prudent to have a ruling a month ahead of the act.
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by asleepathewheel
I think they left palace jumping alone because there were more important things to fix... |
With my limited insider info, I'm pretty sure this is the reason.
Firaxis may recognize certain things as "exploits", but does not feel they need to be addressed because only 5% of the Civ3 player base (maybe less) actually cares. Corruption was obviously a big issue that casual and hardcore players alike were complaining about, so time was devoted to solve it. Palace-jumping may be a recognized exploit, yet it's minor in the grand scheme of things.
Yes, this bugged me a lot at first. Seems to me like Firaxis spends way too much time on the "little" issues (like that nightmare that is MP, for what is surely no more than 15% of the player base), and too little time on the "big" issues like horrible AI terraforming, the Agricultural trait, free techs, and all the wackiness with PBEM. Then I realised that I only consider these things important because they're what I'm interested in. We can only hope that Firaxis is putting their efforts where needed to best help the game (or maximize profits, whatever).
So, in short, the argument that "Firaxis does not think it's an exploit because they would have fixed it by now" does not hold water; Firaxis hears all the player complaints about exploits, and often recongizes them as such, but simply cannot afford to care. For instance, Firaxis knows full well that the Philosophy beeline is a no-brainer, but who cares, they say, we've got better things to do.
Dominae
Last edited by Dominae on 21-02-2004 at 01:01
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20-02-2004 09:02
good job trip and bigfree 
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