20-02-2004 03:16									#1
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Lucky, in principal, has agreed to disband 50% of the teleported units. I have countered with 75% since it would have taken their Galley's two turns at sea in order to successfully cross over. Those two turns correspond to a success rate of 25% (or a failure of 75%); not to mention that APO and CFC would have persued those Galleys and tried to sink them. I think 75% is more than fair to assume as far as survival.

He knows that I'm not speaking as an official of APO so this 75% proposal by me does not have to be final. If there are thoise that wish a higher % then sy say and maybe we can draft another agreement.

Getting GCA to disband these units was a major goal of mine. I think GWT has applied some pressure to GCA in this case to offer the compromise. GWT is now being led by Striker, who seems to be a very reasonable person. Let's see where this leads.

	20-02-2004 03:28									#2
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Fascinating. Trying for 75% is cool, but even 50% rocks. We weren't getting **** before.

I must admit, BF, I don't often like your methods, but you're having some success with this thing.

-Arrian

	20-02-2004 03:34									#3
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Yeah good stuff BF I especially like the bit where the units are randomly chosen.
Hoping they would loose the army?

	20-02-2004 04:04									#4
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So does this mean that CGN will not be allowed to teleport their units?

To me this seems like the only reason why GWT would lean on GCA to agree to disband some units. I believe their new stance will be: "Fine, if GCA more or less undoes their jump, CGN must under theirs as well."


Dominae

	20-02-2004 04:19									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae So does this mean that CGN will not be allowed to teleport their units? To me this seems like the only reason why GWT would lean on GCA to agree to disband some units. I believe their new stance will be: "Fine, if GCA more or less undoes their jump, CGN must under theirs as well." Dominae

Exactly. It's a compromise. All future teleporting would not be allowed.

	20-02-2004 04:28									#6
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I'm not really seeing the compromise, I guess.

GCA is being penalized for their teleport with GWT, while the APO/CGN teleport is left alone? I assume GWT is expecting some sort of compensation (for instance: CGN is not allowed to attack before they teleport).


Dominae

	20-02-2004 04:34									#7
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So its:

GCA agrees to disband 50-75% of its teleported army
CGN et al replays from 3 turns ago?

Seems fair to me. Especially since those units would probably only be harmful to CGN in the immediate future...

	20-02-2004 04:49									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I'm not really seeing the compromise, I guess. GCA is being penalized for their teleport with GWT, while the APO/CGN teleport is left alone? I assume GWT is expecting some sort of compensation (for instance: CGN is not allowed to attack before they teleport). Dominae

The compromise is that CGN will have to replay from 390 AD and NOT teleport AND GCA will have to disband a certain percentage of it's teleported troops.

	20-02-2004 04:54									#9
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I am completely against replaying. But if it is going to happen and we're negotiating...the first thing we want is instant peace, isn't it? Who cares about units now a world away?

	20-02-2004 04:58									#10
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Doesn't look like a compromise from GWT. They get everything they wanted. Meanwhile....

GCA gets a token wrist slap
Poly gets something of no present value
CGN gets screwed.

	20-02-2004 05:01									#11
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quote: Originally posted by roadcage Doesn't look like a compromise from GWT. They get everything they wanted. Meanwhile.... GCA gets a token wrist slap Poly gets something of no present value CGN gets screwed.

GWT massacred nearly all of CGN's knight force not to mention we all know how many ansars etc are in the first wave. That's pretty damaging, i'd say, to restore those knights and allow for greater fortifying of agincourt/waterloo.

	20-02-2004 05:07									#12
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If CGN does the teleport...

- They lose 10 Knights and 1 MI
- Their army gets transported back to their capital, 3 turns away for fastmovers and 5 turns for slowmovers... GWT's Ansar can get there first
- Most importantly, they lose time; as I just said, GWT can get to Agincourt before CGN can
- GWT has a number of healthy Ansar (~10) which can race ahead and hit Agincourt
- GWT loses ~10 Ansar and 1 Pike

If CGN goes back to 390 AD and replays...

- They get their 10 Knights and 1 MI back
- They can conduct a real withdrawl, pillaging the roads as they go instead of the other way around
- They can hold of GWT's Ansar moving ahead of their slowmovers since they will have all 18 Knights concentrated... if GWT moves ahead without Pike support that's as many as 18 Ansar dead in a single turn
- Because of that, CGN can gain 8-10 turns to delay GWT; This allows them to finish researching Gunpowder, hook up Saltpeter and upgrade some Muskets (as many as 18 with a loan from us) before GWT can attack
- GWT gets their 10 Ansar and 1 Pike back

Altogether, the advantages of replaying from a strategic standpoint clearly outweigh those of continuing, even if CGN is allowed to keep the turn where they attacked AND teleported.

	20-02-2004 05:14									#13
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Poly should be demanding an accepted peace on the very next turn.
Be it 3 turns ago, 5 turns ago, or even if we play on from now.

	20-02-2004 05:54									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Poly should be demanding an accepted peace on the very next turn. Be it 3 turns ago, 5 turns ago, or even if we play on from now.

Do we want to kill that galley in the lake or not.

I'm torn between asking for peace now and going ahead with knocking off that Galley.

Trip: How many turns until we can get to it? Is CFC persuing it as well?

	20-02-2004 06:41									#15
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let's kill that galley. GCA is certain to think of something involving that galley and spear to harm us in some way or another.

Btw, we should really push for 75% since the reality of the issue is that they would have been 2 turns in open sea.

	20-02-2004 07:08									#16
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This was posted by Hot_Enamel. I have to say WTF are you doing? You are offering them, in the 2nd proposal, to do less than they alreay agreed to do! Why in the world would you suggest something less?

quote: Just a summary of what has happened within the game to date using exploits. (Approved or not) GWT got a free vassal (1st teleport) GWT now has a large chunk of this vassal’s army at their disposal for their war against CGN (1st teleport) GWT lost 5-6 ansar (2nd teleport & double move) GCA got to remain in the game under the safe protection of GWT (1st teleport) CGN is now facing two enemies on their continent (1st teleport) CGN killed 5-6 ansar (2nd teleport & double move) CFC has suffered war weariness even though no war exists (GCA WW exploit) APO has suffered war weariness even though no war exists (GCA WW exploit) I think all of these issues should be addressed in one agreement. And I think it is clear that GWT/GCA benefited a hell of a lot more with their 1st teleport, than CGN with their 2nd teleport & double move We are talking about CGN now facing 2 enemies and a 2nd army (1st teleport) vs. GWT losing a minor 5-6 ansar.(2nd teleport & double move) What was legal and what was not is really irrelevant, because all of these actions got approval from the administrator. I assume that we are finally coming to a consensus that 1. City Gifting should not be used for the sole purpose of warping units. 2. War Weariness is a by-product of war, and teams should not be using it as an offensive tool in a cold war. Here is what I propose. 1st Teleport solution GCA disbands 75% of all units they warped. These units are to be randomly selected. GCA disbands the galley & units left behind within the internal lake GCA offers an accepted peace immediately to CFC & APO on the turn that we agree to replay. GCA still keeps their escape route to GWT GWT still keeps their vassal CGN still has 2 enemies, but with one army reduced by 75% APO gets peace, and has to suck eggs on all the ww losses of gold and shields up until the turn is played CFC gets peace, and has to suck eggs on all the ww losses of gold and shields up until the turn is played 2nd Teleport solution The turns are replayed from when CGN began to prepare their unit warp. GCA, GWT, & CGN agree that all knowledge gained can be used freely. CFC & APO get peace from GCA on the first turn that is replayed. And finally, we all agree to a rule banning unit warping and the WW exploit. And I should point out, this is my personal idea for a solution. It is not approved by Poly.

	20-02-2004 07:17									#17
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*boggle* That 2nd proposal is bizzarre.

We definatley demand peace for a period long enough to eliminate our war weariness that is the biggest factor their teleporting (and thus survival) has cost us.

Also if teleporting units is banned, then I could care less about that galley. If they have a settler on board, and they land and found a city...without teleporting their army its not a huge threat. Definately not enough of a worry to keep the war weariness.

	20-02-2004 07:21									#18
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We would get peace next turn (the 5th) where GCA would have to send peace accepted on their coming turn.

I also think we should just let that Galley rot in there. As long as they can't teleport anything back then there's no need to kill it... for now.

	20-02-2004 07:25									#19
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I will go back and tiedy it up.

It's not two proposals.
It's one full proposal.

I just split it up as a solution to 2 teleport exploits.

(Unless I have also misunderstand your question)

	20-02-2004 07:53									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel I will go back and tiedy it up. It's not two proposals. It's one full proposal. I just split it up as a solution to 2 teleport exploits. (Unless I have also misunderstand your question)

Thanks H_E. Maybe I misread your post as well.

	20-02-2004 08:00									#21
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From now on, everyone please refrain from posting at the UN unless it's something the consuls post or something that has been previously discussed and decided upon.

This will prevent future misunderstandings and lead to a more coherent and organized way of arguing our side.

Thanks.

	20-02-2004 08:09									#22
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OK -

But I disagree with our consuls attempt to try and split the issues up with different threads & etc.

This is one big problem that needs to be resolved altogether.

Unless the war weariness issue is also resolved, I will change my yes vote from "going back to 390ad" to no.

	20-02-2004 08:23									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel OK - But I disagree with our consuls attempt to try and split the issues up with different threads & etc. This is one big problem that needs to be resolved altogether. Unless the war weariness issue is also resolved, I will change my yes vote from "going back to 390ad" to no.

I agree about the attempt to split off another thread; and so did CGN.

We are woking on another proposal that would require GCA to:

1. Disband 50% of teleoprted units. Units to be randomly decided by mongoose.

2. Disband Galley and Spearmen in lake.

3. Give peace to APO and CFC immediately.

4. Replay the turn from 390 AD.

5. Ban all future telepotations.

	20-02-2004 08:28									#24
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We should also bring up the Palace-jump issue before it's too late. Or are we only moving to ban exploits that hurt us?


Dominae

	20-02-2004 08:31									#25
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6. Ban War Weariness abuse ????

If this all being done in chat ?

	20-02-2004 08:34									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel 6. Ban War Weariness abuse ???? If this all being done in chat ?

I will add that in H_E. Thanks for the reminder.

	20-02-2004 08:39									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae We should also bring up the Palace-jump issue before it's too late. Or are we only moving to ban exploits that hurt us? Dominae

I agree. To me palace jumping is in the same realm of quasi-exploits as other things that have been banned. Certainly Firaxis didn't intend to allow the player to get a free 600 shield building just by learning the mechanics of the game. I never understood why this isn't considered an exploit by TPTB here but other things were.

	20-02-2004 08:40									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae We should also bring up the Palace-jump issue before it's too late. Or are we only moving to ban exploits that hurt us? Dominae

Do you really think of it as an exploit?

In the strat fourm, people don't consider reloading a valid strategy. They do consider Palace jumping, however, to be one. It's perfectly legit to relocate cities; this one just happens to be our Capital. The game surely allows for city relocations else it would not give you the option to abandon them.

Also, APO never moved to get teleporting banned before GWT made the latest stink. We just now moved to get it banned since we don't want it to be ok for one team and not ok for another. It's about balance and fairness.

	20-02-2004 08:46									#29
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Do you really think of it as an exploit? In the strat fourm, people don't consider reloading a valid strategy. They do consider Palace jumping, however, to be one. It's perfectly legit to relocate cities; this one just happens to be our Capital. The game surely allows for city relocations else it would not give you the option to abandon them.

IMHO, its an exploit. I don't think Firaxis intended the player to get a free 600 shield building in an optimal location just because of knowledge of mechanics. The free palace is purely due to corruption calculations, as if you have no capital, you would only have 1 shield cities, good luck building a new capital then. This isn't analogous to merely moving around a few cities, as mere cities won't instantly have structures (disregarding various wonder effects)

	20-02-2004 08:57									#30
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Exploit? Skirts around the edge, IMO.

But I'm fine with it since everyone can do it, and it's not THAT hard to do.

But there are sacrifices, which is why I don't really consider it an exploit. You have to sacrifice the chance at growing pop in a lot of cities, and risk the jump going bad. We need our city sizes down, our FP done, CHs built and the new core properly set up. It's not the kind of thing you snap your fingers and accomplish.