21-02-2004 15:13									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No, just thrown from helicopters, Aggie .

Hey, I see our friend the Rev. Fred Phelps hasn't posted anything about gay marriage on his site. You'd think he'd be foaming at the mouth about it.

He has caught on to our friend Molly and those evil Australians though. What a loon.... perhaps he has been reading Fez.

Doesn't Berz live in Topeka? If so I wonder if he'll see this:

	21-02-2004 15:14									#152
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Wasn't homo fascism an Apolyton invention, and WTF is a gay-enabler?

	21-02-2004 15:14									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi NYE: These posts are starting to flow together in a rational fashion. Interesting. Not intended, but sometimes that's how they work. Good point. However, I argue that marriage cannot be a fundamental human right because it requires two people to exercise the right. As for perversion? I think that there are many things people do that count among that number. Sodomy is one of those, a perversion of the purpose of sex. But again, by that same standard, I too am perverted for some of my earlier actions in my life. So we are all in this together.

What if the new Atheist government decided that no self-proclaimed Christians could get married, let alone have sex as they fear the growth of fundamentalist fanatics?

	21-02-2004 15:14									#154
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quote: I knew I was gay before I slept with anybody.

Good. That fits with what I know.

The proclivities are what you are born with.

Now, is it possible for you to go without sleeping with anyone for long periods of time?

	21-02-2004 15:17									#155
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quote: is a gay-enabler?

Anyone who associates with gays.

	21-02-2004 15:20									#156
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quote: What if the new Atheist government decided that no self-proclaimed Christians could get married,

Within the realm of the state to restrict marriage.

quote: let alone have sex as they fear the growth of fundamentalist fanatics?

Now, get real. Christians, if anything, are very good at concealing these sort of escapades.

I keep getting reminded of that old joke about Baptists.

Baptists are like cats. You know they **** each other, but you never catch them in the act.

	21-02-2004 15:22									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Anyone who associates with gays.

Like you?

	21-02-2004 15:25									#158
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Yep.

I don't shun gays, therefore I'm a gay enabler.

I should put that on my location sig.

Anyway, you must be tired.

I am, and it's 2:30 in the morning.

	21-02-2004 15:26									#159
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It's reading week. I didn't get up until 1pm.

	21-02-2004 15:29									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Now, is it possible for you to go without sleeping with anyone for long periods of time?

Yup.

	21-02-2004 15:29									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Within the realm of the state to restrict marriage. Now, get real. Christians, if anything, are very good at concealing these sort of escapades. I keep getting reminded of that old joke about Baptists. Baptists are like cats. You know they **** each other, but you never catch them in the act.

So you'd agree with the government at this point?

	21-02-2004 15:30									#162
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Well, I had to be up at 8:30am. Laundry and everything needed to be done for the weekend. I hate doing Laundry on weekends, so I try to have everything done by Thursday, if not then, by Friday.

I've been invited to go out to a Summit tomorrow, which is a ecumenical service held by the Catholics. They all go out to dinner afterwards, and we have a really good time.

Denise is still in Kelowna, but I'll be seeing plenty of my other friends.

	21-02-2004 15:32									#163
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quote: So you'd agree with the government at this point?

Government can choose whether or not to recognise marriages at all. That's one of the options pondered by the current Liberal administration is to do away with the institution of civil marriages, sponsored by the state.

	21-02-2004 15:32									#164
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For Fezzieboy, it's mandatory...

Sartre argued that everyone finally decides what they want to be. I'm not sure whether I agree with him, but there is a phenomenological case to be made for it. One of his examples is a homosexual. In his view people have all sorts of desires, but there is nothing about these which removes the reality of having to choose whether or not to follow them.

So it's not just Christians who think homosexuality is a choice, but atheistic existentialists. Strange bedfellows....

	21-02-2004 15:35									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon For Fezzieboy, it's mandatory...

What? Sleeping with hotties? Only if I am in a relationship with one.

quote: So it's not just Christians who think homosexuality is a choice, but atheistic existentialists. Strange bedfellows....

I'm atheist existentialist and I do not believe that crap. Homosexuality is not a choice, not anymore than heterosexuality.

	21-02-2004 15:36									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Government can choose whether or not to recognise marriages at all. That's one of the options pondered by the current Liberal administration is to do away with the institution of civil marriages, sponsored by the state.

So a fair government can select what kind of marriages it will honor and what kind it won't? Like interracial marriages? Or even minority marriages?

	21-02-2004 15:36									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Well, I had to be up at 8:30am. Laundry and everything needed to be done for the weekend. I hate doing Laundry on weekends, so I try to have everything done by Thursday, if not then, by Friday. I've been invited to go out to a Summit tomorrow, which is a ecumenical service held by the Catholics. They all go out to dinner afterwards, and we have a really good time. Denise is still in Kelowna, but I'll be seeing plenty of my other friends.

I don't know how you can stand not ******** Ben.

We had this colleague who was a strong Christian and who made it publicly known that he would not have sex before marriage. He also wrote about his resisting temptation in the varsity rag, but that's another story.

Well, this guy was regarded by a lot of people as rather an uptight arsehole. But then he got married and immediately became Mr Mellow.

See - going without nookie makes you a social liability.

	21-02-2004 15:39									#168
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quote: In his view people have all sorts of desires, but there is nothing about these which removes the reality of having to choose whether or not to follow them.

It makes quite a bit of sense, when you do think about it. We can choose whether or not to act on some of our desires, while other more subconscious ones, we will not.

Sex fortunately is a conscious act. At least for most.

	21-02-2004 15:39									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I'm atheist existentialist and I do not believe that crap. Homosexuality is not a choice, not anymore than heterosexuality.

You can't be an existentialist by definition if you think that following your desires is anything but a choice.

That's what existentialism means, and what the slogan "existence precedes essence" means. The fundamental fact of a person's existence is complete freedom acc to them.

I cant believe you would say such a manifestly ignorant thing.

	21-02-2004 15:40									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi It makes quite a bit of sense, when you do think about it. We can choose whether or not to act on some of our desires, while other more subconscious ones, we will not. Sex fortunately is a conscious act. At least for most.

Hey I did decide when to have sex. It is just that I'm gay. I am attracted to guys. I choose to act on these attractions because I want to live a fullfilling life.

	21-02-2004 15:41									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon You can't be an existentialist by definition if you think that following your desires is anything but a choice. That's what existentialism means, and what the slogan "existence precedes essence" means. The fundamental fact of a person's existence is complete freedom acc to them. I cant believe you would say such a manifestly ignorant thing.

You don't know what existentialism is. The only one ignorant here is you.

	21-02-2004 15:41									#172
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi So a fair government can select what kind of marriages it will honor and what kind it won't? Like interracial marriages? Or even minority marriages?

I think it's only fair to black people to block interracial marriages. I mean honky killed, infected and enslaved them for hundreds of years. Permitting whitey to marry them is the final indignity.

	21-02-2004 15:45									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo You don't know what existentialism is. The only one ignorant here is you.

Oh god.....

I just hope no else one sees your post, before you realize what a total cretin you've made of yourself with that mind bogglingly ignorant statement and edit it.

	21-02-2004 15:45									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Oh god..... I just hope no else one sees your post, before you realize what a total cretin you've made of yourself with that mind bogglingly ignorant statement and edit it.

I love you too, agathy.

	21-02-2004 15:47									#175
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You really ought to change it, Fez. You'll be a laughing stock amongst those in the know if you leave it up.

	21-02-2004 15:48									#176
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quote: I don't know how you can stand not ******** Ben.

It's hard.

My boss has been absolutely radiant the last few days, and I can't say anything. We used to date for a short while, before I promised to work for her, but it never really worked out.

I know if I say too much, I'll get myself in hot water, but again, I do like to pay her a compliment, since I know she does not get all that many.

She is a hard woman to love. Very intense, which is why it would never work between the two of us.

I am also intense, but in a different way. You don't want two intense people together. They burn each other out. Denise is much more laid back than I, which is good for both of us. I tend to get her fired up, and she calms me down.

quote: See - going without nookie makes you a social liability.

No argument there.

	21-02-2004 15:53									#177
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Jeez man... just promise to pray more often and do the woman.

You know, if God does exist, I'm pretty sure he's not going to be pissed at people getting some, as long as they both respect each other and there's no violence, degradation or chains involved.

	21-02-2004 15:53									#178
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quote: So a fair government can select what kind of marriages it will honor and what kind it won't? Like interracial marriages? Or even minority marriages?

Okay.

Good point.

I'm tired, so let's see if I can make an effective counterargument.

To a Christian, recognition of marriage by the state is almost pointless. They care very little, and the state intervention is more for the interests of the state, than it is for the churches. The state wants to rein in the marriages performed by the churches, and to avoid problems like the Mormons, etc.

For this argument, nothing changes in a marriage between a black woman, or a white woman. Race ought to be irrelevant in the context of marriage.

The same cannot be said for gay marriage. The union between one man and one woman cannot be achieved by homosexuals, hence it makes little sense to call their union marriage. It makes a substantial difference, the gender of the participants.

	21-02-2004 15:55									#179
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But Ben, the US is not a christian state nor can you impose your values on anybody else... I can't believe you Agathon. You are standing up for a right-winger. In the case of gay marriage, I am actually quite center-left in this issue for obvious reason (me being gay is one of them).

	21-02-2004 15:56									#180
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quote: just promise to pray more often and do the woman.

You're crazy you know that?

**** my boss while my girlfriend is away?

Plenty of non-biblical reasons to refrain. They do know each other, and are fairly close friends.

Night Agathon.

I'm beat.

Thanks for the chat.