20-02-2004 20:59									#1
	Emporer Ancient Era - How do you balance needs? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ok, into pain again. Second try at Emperor level game, and feeling lost with deciding what is important. Unfortunately Monarch is too boring, so have to try this level.

Some items are easy changes:
-- have to watch happiness more closely. Ok, been there, done it before, more of the same.
-- AI's have cheaper support costs. Ibid.
-- AI's trade faster. Ibid.

But, other changes are more troubling:
-- military starts and continues longer as weak
-- AI's tend to be more trigger happy
-- AI's expand faster.

So, how do you balance all these changes and survive to end of ancient era? What are your initial priorities for C3C?


I lucked out and had a "good start location". 2 wheats and 2 luxuries only 7 tiles away, but suddenly I'm scared. Here I am one city, 2 warriors, and 1 worker. I have met 3 civs and traded what I could for better reputation. But 2 groups of Romans just walked by. One stack of 2 spears and 1 stack of 2 archers. My 2 little warriors are both breathing a sigh of relief and almost dropped a load. I have nothing to trade with the Romans and they are annoyed. Surprise, surprise. Luckily they headed East to yellow, my forces would have died fast. At least they weren't Babs or Jags or I would be dead and gone, gone, gone.

At lower levels you could kinda of count on surviving long enough to build 4-5 cities and then start building a small military. But at this level it seems like the AI's mission is to use early attacks to disrupt your expansion.

So what do you do? How do you balance the needs for
-- defense
-- expansion
-- luxuries
-- workers

It doesn't look like there is time to set up a settler factory. Last time I traded techs for peace, Igot smeared as that just allowed the AI's to jump further ahead. With tech deficit, other AI with GL, and small number of cities, I was eliminated early.

Again, just looking for ideas on how to survive thru the ancient era and some feel for what to expect at this level
-- minimum number of cities you can always build in this era
-- average number of cities you can build in this era
-- maximum number of cities you can build in this era


Thanks for your ideas.

== PF

	20-02-2004 22:15									#2
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First of all, you should know I am an all out warmonger style player, and only resort to builder when I find it neccessary. Allot depends on Map size as well, I typically play standard random, so:

I would say the first thing I personally had to learn on Emperor was the use and utility of camps. Cities that I have NO intention of keeping for the duration of the game.

I want 2-3 of these + the capitol, and my first settler from the capitol usually heads for a camp site, not even that 7 tile away 'good site' you have. Something no more than 3 tiles from the capitol itself and that would have 2 2 food, 2 shield tiles it can use. Even ones inside the capitol's radius will work. Forrest tiles can also be helpfull to keep these camps from growing, otherwise make sure you pop a settler out at size 4 (with 2 police) or you'll have happinass problems.

So, typically before my first war, I will have 2 cities (4-5 or so tiles from the capitol), the capitol, and 1-2 camps(2-3 tiles or so from the capitol). Less if it's an archipeligo map, tighter spacing if I'm real cramped.

Typically, I want my capitol to be the 'settler pump' early, and the rest of the cities to focus on soldiers. As such, the capitol will get the granary unless there is a VERY nice position elsewhere. All others will get a barracks and pump one of the following: Warriors, Chariots, Archers. Depending on available resources.

All of this is for the goal: 2 spears and 6 archers or equivalent attacking troops. Skip the spears if going for swords or Horse.

This should be enough to take 1-2 cities from the AI. Build a city RIGHT on the border before attacking if you can, it'll give you an extra turn closer to your target. Your goal should be either a Resource or Capitol for the first attack. Take 2 cities and the AI will typically want peace. My experience with conquests is that they are not as eager to give tech for peace as previous builds, and you may need to harm them more there. Sometimes I will even prefer asking for cities over techs.

This first war is the essential war for breathing space in my experience after that, more peacefull paths tend to open if you choose. I typically will turn this civ into my personal pet and go whack them every 20 turns for more tech/land unless there is a better neighbor that has aroused my attention.

Other things to note: Allow AI to tramp through you territory more, don't always demand they leave.

Don't pay attention to the 'weaker' early in the game. most often the AI has their forces scattered, the only thing that matters is what's in the immediate area. You can expect cities to be defended by 2 spear and perhaps an offensive unit or two. The capitol will typically have 2-3 spear depending on when you strike.

Give in to demands more. Is that 20 gold really going to hurt that much?

Consider small gifts if you are REAL uneasy about an attack from someone. Offer them a spare lux, perhaps...I've done it at no cost before.

Pre-emptively make alliances. Worried about the dog-pile? Declare war, make alliance with X against Y, pay them if needed, proceed to attack. This skyrockets relations with X.

	20-02-2004 22:39									#3
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx First of all, you should know I am an all out warmonger style player, and only resort to builder when I find it neccessary. Allot depends on Map size as well, I typically play standard random, so:

Forgot to mention, this is the size of map I play 98% of the time..

quote: I would say the first thing I personally had to learn on Emperor was the use and utility of camps. Cities that I have NO intention of keeping for the duration of the game.

Interesting, I tried my first camps/forts last 2 games. At first I had them too close to capital/or kept them tooo long.

quote: I want 2-3 of these + the capitol, and my first settler from the capitol usually heads for a camp site, not even that 7 tile away 'good site' you have. Something no more than 3 tiles from the capitol itself and that would have 2 2 food, 2 shield tiles it can use. Even ones inside the capitol's radius will work. Forrest tiles can also be helpfull to keep these camps from growing, otherwise make sure you pop a settler out at size 4 (with 2 police) or you'll have happinass problems. So, typically before my first war, I will have 2 cities (4-5 or so tiles from the capitol), the capitol, and 1-2 camps(2-3 tiles or so from the capitol). Less if it's an archipeligo map, tighter spacing if I'm real cramped. Typically, I want my capitol to be the 'settler pump' early, and the rest of the cities to focus on soldiers. As such, the capitol will get the granary unless there is a VERY nice position elsewhere. All others will get a barracks and pump one of the following: Warriors, Chariots, Archers. Depending on available resources. All of this is for the goal: 2 spears and 6 archers or equivalent attacking troops. Skip the spears if going for swords or Horse.

I usually skip spears now with upgraded archers and use archers and horse, or if stuck archers and swords til get horses.

quote: This should be enough to take 1-2 cities from the AI. Build a city RIGHT on the border before attacking if you can, it'll give you an extra turn closer to your target. Your goal should be either a Resource or Capitol for the first attack. Take 2 cities and the AI will typically want peace. My experience with conquests is that they are not as eager to give tech for peace as previous builds, and you may need to harm them more there. Sometimes I will even prefer asking for cities over techs.

Thanks, I had assumed they would not give cities. Humm, that might be much better than a tech or two.

quote: This first war is the essential war for breathing space in my experience after that, more peacefull paths tend to open if you choose. I typically will turn this civ into my personal pet and go whack them every 20 turns for more tech/land unless there is a better neighbor that has aroused my attention. Other things to note: Allow AI to tramp through you territory more, don't always demand they leave. Don't pay attention to the 'weaker' early in the game. most often the AI has their forces scattered, the only thing that matters is what's in the immediate area. You can expect cities to be defended by 2 spear and perhaps an offensive unit or two. The capitol will typically have 2-3 spear depending on when you strike. Give in to demands more. Is that 20 gold really going to hurt that much? Consider small gifts if you are REAL uneasy about an attack from someone. Offer them a spare lux, perhaps...I've done it at no cost before. Pre-emptively make alliances. Worried about the dog-pile? Declare war, make alliance with X against Y, pay them if needed, proceed to attack. This skyrockets relations with X.

WOW, WOW, great detail. This is exactly what I needed. I was only using 3 forts in last game. I will have to up my usage of them. One I ended up keeping as I missplaced a city and had a dead spot. But the other 2 were abandoned before too long. I noticed even at Monarch that with C3C it is rare not to have cities defended by spears. I have also noticed the AI loves to use a lot of archers. I no longer worry about territory infractions and bullying demands for XYZ. Often the demands are better than war as it is not a good time for war for me. I wait, remember, wait, and then....

Thank you for the great advice. And I had assumed all the good players were only at civfan. Big mistake, glad to see there is still quality on poly.

== PF

	20-02-2004 23:06									#4
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I wasn't sure you were playing Conquests, yes, it is easier to bypass the spears there. Personally I would prefer waiting and going with more horses than having the archers, but that is just a preference.

On the camps:

A thing I have been toying with here most recently is KEEPING them in a strategy specifically geared towards feudalism as a Govt. Even BUILDING MORE so that my border is a series of little fort cities. It's been met with mixed, but positive success so far at Emperor.

Typically you are going to want to disband them around the early Medieval era, and certainly before industrial. My personal biggest problem is remembering not to build further improvements in them.

Finally, there are many here well more versed than I. I am sure they will get around to making me look like the fool soon enough. I'm adept at Emperor, and will micro enough to play higher difficulties once in a blue moon, but don't find that as fun as some of the more number oriented folks here, so I stick around Emperor as it's where I have the most fun.

I would suggest joining one of the Demogames in it's early stages as an excellent source of learning the early game and how to manage everything at once.

	20-02-2004 23:22									#5
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I'm relatively new to Emperor also, but I wonder if your map settings are impacting your survival rate?
If I have the tiles for a 4-turn pump and enough room for a ring around the capitol(City-tile-tile-City almost always), I will definitely go for the pump, industrious or not. "Typical" build order for starting the capitol is Scout/Warrior-Worker-Granary-Warrior, but that's not carved in stone.

Have you accidentally cranked the AI Aggression up and forgotten it? I don't typically have much problem getting through the ancient.

Expansion is my top priority - if I have no cities/land, I am in a world of hurt with low income, low troop support, resource shortage, etc.

Unless a demanding AI is on another continent, I always give in in the early game. If they are on another landmass, let 'em declare war and give you a happiness boost.

So, I guess my top priority is expansion and settling cities, but I pack 'em in C-x-x-C style(one turn on roads). This also lets me improve fewer tiles if I can get my settler-pump fluctuating on a different cycle from my military(and worker) towns so they can share tiles. It's a lot of MM, though.


A good source of "how do you do it" info is the AU 501 DAR threads in the Apolyton University forum - for packing the cities in tightly, check out Theseus' game. For running a small defensive military, check out Aeson's. (If you plan on trying the course, though, these will have spoilers.)

And, as always, the "Must Read Threads" sticky in this forum is full of threads good enough to read over and over.

Again, I'm relatively new to Emperor also, so this info may not carry as much weight as a vet, it's just what I do and how I play.
Good luck!

	21-02-2004 01:54									#6
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i'm new to emperor, ie. 2 games, but both were finished. 1 won, in the other came 3rd. Do you really need to use camps? This pic is from my new game, with Maya, and those are the cities settled in order. The capital is off centre, and i've not taken a single city. My military was one warrior/town + 3 exploring, + 3 workers.
Comment and complain as you see fit, but My 2 neibours are spain, then Rome.
No 4-turn settler pumps, no camps, and CxxxC city placing. (Basic i know).

Attachment: emp pic.jpg
This has been downloaded 190 time(s).

	21-02-2004 02:13									#7
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No real comment, other than to say that's a nice job of maximizing your Agricultural free food with all those towns on water aside from a couple of instances.
Curious, however, that you settled linearly instead of centrally around your capitol.
Is that strategically motivated, or just "how it happened"?

(Agricultural is so strong.)

	21-02-2004 02:18									#8
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I saw that the land to the north was good, (2 cattle + 8 BG). I always place a city close to their capital to slow down their growth and then grow exponentialy. this is the sort of size that ALL my empires are untill my first war around cavalry
(Note jungle to south and desert to north)

Last edited by Krill on 21-02-2004 at 02:45

	21-02-2004 02:39									#9
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planetfall, you say this is on a std map? Is it will 8 civs? I would not expect to see three civs with spears and 2 unit stacks roving by me so soon.
I would expect to see a warrior or a scout from them. Were you just smack dap close to them all?

I use a similar start as UnOrthOdOx. First settler is normally going to be for a camp. I will not worry about the great site 7 or more tiles away as I will be getting it at some point. If I can't, then I got bigger problems. I will try to get two camps and use the capitol for settlers at the start. Then see what makes sense.

Am I seeing a neighbor that is trying for those sites near me? If so maybe I will gear for for expansion.

Anyway I expect to use the camps until my capitol can go beyond size 12. I mean I don't need those tiles before then anyway.
I will post a layout I got from Master Zen, that still serves me as a good guide. I used quick reply and can't add an image now.

	21-02-2004 02:40									#10
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Here it is.

Attachment: zenning.jpg
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	21-02-2004 02:41									#11
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Typically you are going to want to disband them around the early Medieval era, and certainly before industrial. My personal biggest problem is remembering not to build further improvements in them.

Me too. Even with naming sometimes I forgot and build a stray temple or library. First time named city #####f for fort. But too often I missed this was a fort city and not a normal city. Second time I made fewer build mistakes by naming city f_#####. The 'f_' underline did the trick. I only had one wrong build. And it was easy to find the forts to disband them just when they started to interfer with key cities production.

Others, thank you for your input. Like I said at the beginning, it has
been months since I lost my first Emperor game. Hopefully I have learned something since then. At least now I not only know about fort/camps but have played with them and have a sense of their advantages and disadvantages.

Thanks for the screen shot, it tells me don't give up even though you are on emperor level. Normalized games are still possible. We'll see how it goes this weekend.

PF

	21-02-2004 02:47									#12
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Ah yes, "Zening".

Krill,

I am sure there is ways to out-rex the AI on Emperor, especially with Agri and/or a good location. I would even go so far as to say that in any number of instances that may be the SMARTER strategy. As I stated in my first post, though, I am an all out warmonger player. For warmongering, in the ancient era, yes, I have found camps neccessary at Emperor or above.

My first two camps are now officially "Camp UnO and Camp dOx" in all my games.

	21-02-2004 02:48									#13
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I played Emperor almost from Civ3 1.29, successfuly. Mostly builder style. Only recently I learned that you must use camps and pumps to successed. I used neither.

Although resource and luxyry deficit forced me to use millitary more that I wish to.

	21-02-2004 02:50									#14
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Krill welcome aboard. It is hard to say much from a screen shot. It is even hard to see if you have all cities roaded or not (with my old eyes). It looks reasonable at a glance anyway.

If you in fact only have 3 workers for some 22 cities or there abouts, that is costing you.

With your UU you should have lots of slaves by now to get to about one native worker per city. You can get by for a large part of the ancient age with less than 1 worker per city as an industrious civ, but it will start to work against you after a few cities are up.

	21-02-2004 02:54									#15
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pvzh that worked quite well for me all the way to deity in CivIII and even PTW.

It is even possible at Demi with a great location, but I found it is easier to play as if you are a warmongger. That is, use camps, even if you do not start wars, in C3C.

	21-02-2004 02:56									#16
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Ah yes, "Zening".

I figured an MZO civver would appreaciate it.

	21-02-2004 02:58									#17
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Actually,

all those old Dtrategy (no that's not a typo) threads are worth a look when talking about camps: http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...&threadid=90000

Especially the "RL" example one: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=90611

	21-02-2004 03:00									#18
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.

quote: Krill welcome aboard.

Thank you for the welcoming.

More like 30 workers. All are roaded, but only recently got iron + horses. I hate that UU, and the workers are no where good enough. That and i can't use most of the cities because of the crippling corruption. the palace will be moved a more central position, THEN i'll go to war and use the UU to kill off some half dead unit.

	21-02-2004 03:04									#19
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* UnOrthOdOx begins to panic at seeing the state of that military...


Just differing playstyles.

	21-02-2004 03:06									#20
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I know i'm cutting it fine , but Spain + Rome are at war, and both love me and are, basically, crap. Invasion by sea? Not with this AI. Swap govs when? in 8 turns, when Feudalism is reseached, to republic, and get that B*****y palace moved ASAP

Last edited by Krill on 21-02-2004 at 03:38

	21-02-2004 03:50									#21
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quote: Build a city RIGHT on the border before attacking if you can, it'll give you an extra turn closer to your target. Your goal should be either a Resource or Capitol for the first attack.

What about a wonder?

	21-02-2004 04:56									#22
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I had so much trouble balancing, I stopped doing it, then my game got better. Build culture only as needed, make sure to have it when you get close to a capitol, eitgher with a temple before you prepare for your first war, or poprushing in all your cities as the need comes, and if you have enough culture, let it slide for a while.

The secret to economising is knowing tech gets cheaper as time goes by, so libraries are only good for culture.

That leaves warmongering, once a civ is close, and Rexing when war is impractical. My first war starts when I have 2 cities, enough to defray some of the unit costs. NonMilitary civs should wait on the barracks, until at least the second war, 40 shields buys only a 33% increase in attack strength. Breakeven comes when a city produces 160 shields of units. Your first war need only yield a few cities, they'll be poprushing units, and their lower population will bite them in the a$$ when you attack again in 20 turns. Also, if you don't approach their capitol, culture won't be a problem, until your next war.

Nonscientic civs pay 80 for a library a 50% increase in science. If each of your cities produced 4 archers, you could probaly increase your empire by 50%. These cities will produce more shields too, so skip building until it makes Sense.

	21-02-2004 07:19									#23
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Don't foget the JT's are great to backup an attacker. The 0 bombardment helps. So they are useful and you can hit the barbs with them and get slaves.

	22-02-2004 01:24									#24
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quote: you can hit the barbs with them and get slaves.

I'm using the Au mod, so i must abide by the house rules: NO BARB FARMING.

	22-02-2004 03:58									#25
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Well I don't know if that means you cannot kill barbs with your UU.
I would think that means no setting aside and area to let the barbs respawn and then kill them over and over.

I do not see a problem with just using your units naturally. Farming is an exploit, killing them as you find them is another thing altogether.

	23-02-2004 01:59									#26
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Ok, fair point, i'll do that next time' seeing as they are all gone now.
Just a thought, but if the jt was used to pop a goody hut, then (almost) any outcome is going to be beneficial, because barbs are spawned then there is the chance to gain a worker

	23-02-2004 02:36									#27
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True, but how many huts are you going to be in a position to pop with a Jav? By the time you have some, all the huts are going to be gone. Maybe at a real low level, you may be able to get a hut or two.

	23-02-2004 02:46									#28
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Ok, but it was just a thought. The jt is an ok UU, but at this level it seems that it would be better to build 3 warriors, or a legionary, than a javalin thrower.
I suppose that the traits help to balance the needs of expansion, exploration, workers, and defence by boosting needs 1 + 3, letting the player concentrate on needs 2+4 more.
Maya are probably the best civ to jump levels with, aren't they?

	23-02-2004 04:43									#29
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The Mayans have two great traits, but it is a bugger to avoid the real early GA. I used them for some Demi and Sid games. At Emp, you could get by with not using the UU for combat until you feel a GA is not a bad thing.
I am playing a game at Deity now using the Ottoman. I think you could definetly not worry about wonder building triggering a GA, but it would be hard to avoid using the ancient UU above Demi.

I wanted to try a religious civs, but it was hard to find one without a UU that was a sword or archer type. So I went with Science and Industry with middle age UU.

The funny thing was I was next to China and got 2 wars before I even knew the tech for archers. The dutch jumped me after the first war, but never got more than a few units to me as they had to go through china.

As to building the UU ir more units, it is all situational. Get in a spot with one or even no immediate neighbor, you have a different issue than say in my game. I am on the butt of what may be a large contient. I am cut off by China and I know the Dutch were next to them. China pushed the Dutch back where I can't see them. I just got my first galley out this turn. I never got any scouting past China, they would not stand for it. So I have very little knowledge of the map.

	23-02-2004 04:47									#30
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BTW I ran into a China sending a cat at one of my cities with a spear. I can't recall seeing any cats attacking me before. One city I captured had three cats in it and I have captured 2 others. Very unusal to see so early in the game.