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Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Civilization III > Civ3-Democracy Game > Intersite DG: Apolyton Team > GWT appears to be backing out of the deal
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E_T is offline E_T
Emperor
Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:34
  Old Post 22-02-2004 18:59
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GWT appears to be backing out of the deal Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

From the Teleport thread at the UN
quote:
== GWT withdraws its protest ==

After some long and straining days of discussion, GWT has come to the agreement, that we'll withdraw our protest and continue to play the ISDG2 with the last received save.

Why has it come to this? Well we find, that in the past there have been too many inconsistencies, loopholes or other unfair exploits. Undeniably, this has to end at some point. It has to be halted, that every team - GWT itself is no exception - searches for the best and most tricky way to to get an advantage over ones opponents. We want this to stop because we're tired of all the fighting and back stabbing.

We understand, that we have offended other teams and their members, by helping GCA escape from extinction. We understand, that it probably wasn't right - even though it was a legal action, aproved by the referee. We understand, that is was just a matter of time until We'd receive our due. Unfortunately, it has been paid back and a high price it was. We still believe that it was a heavy blow - an immense blow - and we still feel that we've been corrupted.

However we will accept it for the good cause.

It's about time, that we all stop searching for new loopholes, etc. Nonetheless, someone has to start at some point, even if it means dealing with an uncomfortable situation. We all play for a reason: we want to have a good time with a worldwide community of similar-interested individuals.

In the name of a more straightforward future, we ask all of you, to drop your claim for any kind of reparations for past teleportation or WW effect. Please stop counting certain issues against current situations and help us move on. We accept our burden as well and to be honest, there could as well be a claim for reparations for the whole "Fortify All" issue.

From now on, no further unit teleportation of any kind shall be allowed. It shall be banned and any following ISDGs similarly.

In addition we'd like to incite to also forbid teleportation, if hostile units are just 1 round within striking range. Though this shall be discussed in a seperate thread, in the form of a sole issue and without any kind of reference to this situation.

We thank all of you for the time and effort you put into solving this issue. It's been worth the trouble, as we finally worked out what has been in disorder for a long time.


Sincerly,
Your GWT


If we want to go back, we need to work on GWT NOW!!

E_T

OPD is offline OPD
King
Birmingham UK
Jun 2002
time: 05:34
  Old Post 22-02-2004 19:08
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Well maybe we should just give it up then and play on from where we were. That looks like the only real way forward.

Even though us and CGN may really need a redo we can't realistically protest against simply carrying on from where we left off. As GWT seem to be intent on doing that there's little we can do.

E_T is offline E_T
Emperor
Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:34
  Old Post 22-02-2004 19:12
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And I was just mid way through my do-over orders/plans

:sigh:

E_T

E_T is offline E_T
Emperor
Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:34
  Old Post 22-02-2004 19:13
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And did they get damaged more that we had originally thought??

E_T

OPD is offline OPD
King
Birmingham UK
Jun 2002
time: 05:34
  Old Post 22-02-2004 19:23
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They're probably just trying to make a big deal out of it

quote:
We understand, that is was just a matter of time until We'd receive our due. Unfortunately, it has been paid back and a high price it was


they haven't really paid that big a price at all however that is besides the point, IMO we have no realistic grounds on which to oppose simply playing on.

asleepathewheel is offline asleepathewheel
Emperor
listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 22-02-2004 19:34
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Good deal.

to stubborn webbies who have wasted a lot of precious time of all parties.
to webbie for understanding that they were at least partially to blame for the situation.

Most importantly: Game on!

conmcb25 is offline conmcb25

Emperor
Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:34
  Old Post 22-02-2004 20:15 Visit conmcb25<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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Arne sent out some PM's to GWT last night, I wonder if Striker saw it before he posted?

I got a feeling we tried to work GWT a little too late.

Someone REALLY needs to step up and volunteer to be the diplomat for them.

We have around a hundred people in this game. One of you needs to volunteer and help out on this

Reforming Diplomacy

Last edited by conmcb25 on 22-02-2004 at 20:39

Dominae is offline Dominae
Emperor

Jan 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 22-02-2004 21:36
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Wow, a first-class show by GWT.

I really hope we're not going to try and force the game back because it benefits us. We've made our point, GWT conceded it, now (as sleepy put it): game on!


Dominae

vondrack is offline vondrack

Emperor
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:34
  Old Post 22-02-2004 22:06
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Game on!

conmcb25 is offline conmcb25

Emperor
Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:34
  Old Post 22-02-2004 22:36 Visit conmcb25<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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Yep, it looks that way, CFC just posted that there position is the same as GWT's and of course Lucky cheered them on.

CFC's lack of communication with us, definately hurt us this time if the intent was to go back

If we are going to have a partnership with them I think we need to work them more diplomatically.

And yes I know they have been absent and unresponsive lately

conmcb25 is offline conmcb25

Emperor
Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:34
  Old Post 22-02-2004 22:40 Visit conmcb25<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae


Wow, a first-class show by GWT.

I really hope we're not going to try and force the game back because it benefits us. We've made our point, GWT conceded it, now (as sleepy put it): game on!


Dominae


Um, this is great BUT we are still getting screwed with war weariness and we still have accepted cities from CGN, if we went back that would have made this "right".

So we are still living with the effects of "exploits".

So yes it did help us but the main driver for me anyway is that it made the game "cleaner".

At least thats MHO.

OPD is offline OPD
King
Birmingham UK
Jun 2002
time: 05:34
  Old Post 22-02-2004 23:03
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quote:
Originally posted by conmcb25
Yep, it looks that way, CFC just posted that there position is the same as GWT's


Well yeah it is realistically the best/possibly only way to go forward.

I think we should also post that we agree to moving forward. We have no grounds on which to refuse to and we could do with regaining some dignity/class.

Perhaps something to the effect of "although we don't like it we see no grounds on which we can disagree to play on"

Arnelos is offline Arnelos
Emperor
of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 22-02-2004 23:33
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GWT's new policy matches the CGN original policy and even matches Apolyton's original policy.

- We let all previous unit warps stand and agree to move the game forward.

- All unit warping in the future is strictly banned.

The only component missing is a WW agreement. We need to discuss that at the U.N.

As for GWT's proposal on dropping their protest, I'm in full agreement. I happen to think that CGN might be a bit better off replaying from 390 A.D., but GWT's offer matches our own original policy and it would be fair.

wervdon is offline wervdon
Prince

Nov 2001
time: 23:34
  Old Post 22-02-2004 23:47
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I could care less about when we replay from if at all, but don't let them out without giving us a period of peace to eliminate the WW.

EDIT:

In fact, I would go so far as to say:

We'll replay from whichever year is sent to us, BUT we are going to send GCA peace accepted on that turn. If the save comes back to us without them accepting peace we will hold the save indefinately until the WW issue (which was caused solely by GCA teleporting its entire civ across the world) is resolved once and for all. We do not demand or request any reperations for damage already caused to our economy from WW, but we have to insist future damage cease.



Also, I think any forced peace should be in effect until:
We share a city on the same continent as GCA or one side develops navigation and redeclares war on the other.

Last edited by wervdon on 22-02-2004 at 23:53

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 22-02-2004 23:51 Visit Trip's homepage!
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It's a shame that after all this effort, things fell apart.

In any case, life goes on. We will have to get peace another way, and CGN will probably be drilled into the ground.

BigFree is offline BigFree

Emperor
Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:34
  Old Post 23-02-2004 00:02
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Why does tis all have to be thrown away?

Why does GCA's negotiated deal have to be thrown out?

Why can't we ask mongoose to enforce his ruling if CGN (and APO and CFC) are not happy with the results?

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:34
  Old Post 23-02-2004 00:12 Visit Trip's homepage!
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Because he already made a ruling, which was, IIRC, ignored.

BigFree is offline BigFree

Emperor
Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:34
  Old Post 23-02-2004 00:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Trip
Because he already made a ruling, which was, IIRC, ignored.


Well, you do not RC.

mongoose only voiced his opinon about the compromise and said he was glad that the teams were willing to compromise. He said that the compromise would be the way to go, IHO. But, he never said "This is my ruling."

Now, since the compromises have failed, it's time for mongoose to make a rulig. Even if it goes against his previous rulings of allowing teleports. He has indicated that this was a mistake and it should have never been allowed.

If it should have never been allowed what's wrong with making it 'right'?

This is what mongoose's job is!

Master Zen is offline Master Zen
Deity
of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:34
  Old Post 23-02-2004 00:36 Visit Master Zen's homepage!
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While this solution matches both CGN/Poly's original suggestion, we can't help but realize that it puts GWT in an undeniably advantageous situation which can very well mean CGN's downfall. Unfortunately at this moment there is absolutely nothing we can do about it. CGN is screwed because of their own incompetence.

- Why did they not offer replaying from 420 (just before the roads were cut)? 420, though worse off than 390 was undeniably better than 440. GWT in fact said they had no problem with replaying from 410...

- CGN has constantly shown to be unable to realize the perils of their strategic situation, and thus have been too slow in negotiating what is right for them until it is too late.

- CGN has also not learned to reign in their tempers (something certain Apolytonians haven't learned either) and have shown what happens when passion gets in the way of reason as demonstrated in the last few pages of the UN thread.


In conclusion, if CGN is to get its ass whooped, it is not because we failed to prevent it, it's because they have been too damn incompetent to save themselves. There is only so much we can do to assist them, but if it is a team incapable of understanding what is best for them, they are bound to fail, if not at this moment, not so far into the future.

As with GWT, it was THEIR protest and have now withdrawn it. We are in no position to demand a ruling on the matter since we wre initially (and publically) in favor of the same thing GWT is asking for right now (same with CGN).

The sorry part in all of this is that our arguments (by ALL teams) have been merely to salvage out the most advantageous in-game situation. In the end we have been caught in the basic flaw of our own arguments and now there's nothing we can do about it. We did all we could to get a favorable result out of this but it is for naught if CGN continually decides to shoot themselves in the foot.

Let's hope now that GWT's victory is not so devatating, and let's plan for the worst. We can still win this game, except it will now be far more challanging.

-MZ

Togas is offline Togas
Emperor
California
Jun 2002
time: 21:34
  Old Post 23-02-2004 00:39
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Put an end to popups!

Back off of Mongoose.

The problem was with GWT refusing to play the save and b*tching to Mongoose about how unfair the teleport was. Now that GWT has accepted the situation things are right in the world again ... for the most part.

I do think we should politely but firmly FINALIZE things with GCA before the action gets started up again. This is important because we don't want to be the ones to halt things next time. Bottom line is we get peace. Now. If we can still get them to disband 50% of their troops that's just gravy.

--Togas

wervdon is offline wervdon
Prince

Nov 2001
time: 23:34
  Old Post 23-02-2004 01:25
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I don't think we have a leg to stand on regarding demanding we go back and replay turns to counter act our own exploit

Besides, I don't want our position to come down to what is in our best interests with regards to winning the game. I do want us to make a solid and unmovable stand on the whole war weariness issue and demand a resolution with regards to it. It doesn't even have to be attached to the teleport/replay issue, but we should if necessary halt the game longer to resolve it....its gone on long enough.

Our position IMO needs to be to get a permanent ruling on the issue that pretty much states:
When two warring parties can not effectively fight each other due to game mechanics, then the war shall halt at the request of either side until it is again feasible to wage war.

Waging war shall be defined as the real potential to capture/raze cities belonging to the other side and not simple unit skirmishes. In this case real war will not be possible until both sides share cities on the same continent or the side wishing to resume the war has developed navigation.

Hot_Enamel is offline Hot_Enamel
Emperor
Melbourne, Australia
Aug 2002
time: 14:34
  Old Post 23-02-2004 03:11
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I would make a post, that Apolyton intends to continue to interfere in the CGN/GWT/GCA war, to ensure that GWT & GCA encounter as much war weariness as possible.

We will continue with this exploit, even if CGN loses, and not give peace to either team until we are certain we have extracted as much damage to their economy as GCA has done to ours.

Last edited by Hot_Enamel on 23-02-2004 at 04:17

wervdon is offline wervdon
Prince

Nov 2001
time: 23:34
  Old Post 23-02-2004 04:03
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I wouldn't HE.

Taking it to that level (we're going to do it to you too!) takes away from our argument that its against the spirit of the game and thus an exploit.

Hot_Enamel is offline Hot_Enamel
Emperor
Melbourne, Australia
Aug 2002
time: 14:34
  Old Post 23-02-2004 04:07
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We took it to "that level", and got warping banned.
Lets do it again, and get WW banned.

It got down & dirty, but it achieved the results we wanted.


Difference this time, is that we are giving them & the umpire fair warning that we are going to do it.

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