05-03-2004 06:16									#31
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Now that I think about it we have oil wells all over southern cal. Some on hills, some on beach, even out in the ocean.

Tell that to the RNG!

I'll try to dig up some screenies

	05-03-2004 14:27									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike So you tried it as we discussed in AU501? What did you think?

Well I put a couple of camps near my capital in this game and they spewed forth a stream of workers. One remained a camp, the other town governor got big ideas and started building other improvements - hard to control some of these serfs. But I digress....

I also read last night Vulture's great article (well, with contributions from a lot of people at this forum) on Civ3 expansion, that ducki pointed me to....so I'm more familiar now with what Borging and Ralphing really mean.

I would say my approach is probably a hybrid. I'm not sure I've got the discipline for pure Ralphing...although with the RCP exploit gone the exact placement of the towns is not so vital any more from a corruption viewpoint. I would say that what I've now moved to is closer to the Borging idea, and then nominating a couple of the towns to be camps....or dropping them in later if there's space.....which in any case is a great improvement and a long way from the OCP I used to aspire to. The final thing I now need to work on is spacing my camps properly and disciplining myself not to build any unnecessary improvements in them so that I don't feel a pang of regret when it's time to get rid of them.

Anyway, you can see from the screenie below what I did. Really it was only one camp - New Satsuma. The other one, Neo-Tokyo, I set up as a camp but it became a proper town as it had some coastal tiles of its own to work (I know, not the best location for a camp)....meaning I should have planted a town there much earlier I guess...

Also, I didn't spend any time MM'ing the camps. I just plopped down a settler and decreed "thou shalt build workers" and left them alone.....every few turns I would get a nice little surprise to help with the terra-forming or add to other cities. I was still trying to cope with the huge increase in MM required to manage closer-spaced cities, to be bothered MM'ing a worker-pump type town.

But anyway, yes this approach worked very well for me and I very much doubt I will ever go back to OCP, except perhaps for late game when I'm trying to build wonders or expensive stuff....and even then it will be the Ralph approach - disband the camp to free up productive tiles for your mega-city project, as well as reducing your OCN corruption for your best cities.

So in summary....I'm now spacing my towns between 3.5 and 4 (3.5 being 2 NSEW and 1 diagonal), and I'm finding this gives most cities the ability to grow to 12, with some being limited to say 8 or 9. Then later I'll drop Hospitals into a few - usually the coastal cities, to either increase their size or free up more inland tiles. As for exact placement, I'm not following any precise formula, but deciding based on tpye of terrain and proximity of bonus squares.

I feel I may still have my towns a little far apart - perhaps you could comment on the attached:

	05-03-2004 14:36									#33
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vmxa1: ok, so I exaggerated a little....I counted them and I've got 10 tundra tiles, no desert!

Here's the screenie of the Japanese empire in 300AD. REXing has finished (except for another town I later plopped down due east of the landbridge to the English).....leaving a couple of nice spots near the capital that would soon become worker camps.

Just out of the Ancient Age and have recently become a Republic - then watched in horror as net income quickly became negative. The culprit? Unit support cost of course, so the next few hundred years were spent turning all towns into cites.

Attachment: japan 300ad.jpg
This has been downloaded 195 time(s).

	05-03-2004 14:37									#34
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Current time, 1440AD - screenshot of the recently acquired former Greek territories and their lovely game-saving (I hope) resources:

Attachment: japan 1440ad - 2.jpg
This has been downloaded 190 time(s).

Last edited by Aqualung71 on 05-03-2004 at 14:43

	05-03-2004 15:48									#35
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The spacing is fine, better than OCP. Don't overcompensate though......I always have an idea which are the long term cities from the start.

	05-03-2004 20:54									#36
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To things -
Re DrSpike's comment about knowing which are long term cities and which are disbandable camps, I have started adding "Camp" to the name of any newly founded disbandable camp - this is really helpful when I've got fantabulous territory around the capitol and can get 2 towns and 2-4 camps in with 2-tile spacing - that way I don't accidentally build a temple in a Military Training Camp or a Barracks in my "bedroom communities".


Secondly, I fired up this game(demi2.sav, the one that the screenie link goes to) and I feel mighty lost.
I just entered the Middle Ages second after the Sumerians and sold around the techs I could get money for so that Greece would get into the MA and get his free tech - I was hoping he'd get the same one as Sumeria to pull down the price, but he didn't, so now I have to either wait for someone to be 2nd civ or pay monopoly and broker them.

That's not really the problem, though. The problem is, I know I can't keep up in research - Sumeria is running away, and how! I think I did alright with tech trading in the ancient age even paying monopoly for Philo.

I sent out 4-5 curraghs and found I had a middleman position between the Mayan continent and France. I was able to buy Writing at 3-5th civ price and turn it into Iron, WC, Masonry and some income. Then I bought Philo a bit later at monopoly price - 258g +1gpt and turned that into Math, Mystic, Poly, Construction, Maps, CoL, HBR, Iron, Spice(allowing me to trade my Incense), Horses(allowing me to trade my Horses) some cash and possibly a little GPT. Then I bought Currency at 3rd( I think). Later I sold off Construction to anyone with more money than Alexander(5g) that knew Alex to find out what his freebie was. Now I've got a palace prebuild(probably a mistake) that I'd like to turn into either the GLib or something Middle Ages if I can ride it out long enough. Sumer has Feudalism, Greece has Mono(teehee) and I can't afford to buy either just now even with my bank.

My island is not filled up, but Maya have started infringing(which will make my first war a bit easier on me. ) and I have no research capability. Also, Sumeria has an apparent monopoly on both Monarchy and Republic and won't sell for anything I can afford.

So basically, ACK! This is much more painful than the Monarchy->Emperor jump and I'm feeling mighty lost and directionless. I'll try to post a sav tonight and maybe one of you demigods can tell me if I'm on track or if I've flubbed it. The only thing I actually feel good about is the tech trading, putting me in 2nd place until I gifted(essentially) Greece into the MA to see his freebie. I'm so lost.

	05-03-2004 21:05									#37
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Don't feel bad, this is not an easy map. Good play can keep you in front until the start of the middle ages (where I am now), but I know it will be tricky to stay there. I grabbed all 3 little islands around the landmass early but still don't have enough land to not struggle later. Maya are the only prospect for attack, and let's face it even with Samurai it's going to be a pain..........maybe even more trouble than it's worth if you grabbed all the little islands too.

I haven't decided yet......I'll let you know.

	05-03-2004 21:29									#38
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Hmmmm.... I wonder how late Samurai are still effective....
Now that I've actually started, I need to go read what you other guys are doing. Thanks for the encouragement, I seem to remember reading that beyond emperor, the Middle Ages is generally the "worst" period, feel-wise.

And how the heck did you grab all the islands? I got luck to land on the SE island on the same turn as Maya and settle first, prompting him to settle on MY land. Stupid smokey j.

	05-03-2004 21:38									#39
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Hehe in 1075BC my tears of frustration turned to tears of joy when the French didn't have writing (Maya and Greece did) and I managed to sequentially trade for all the money of 4 civs and all the techs that had been researched up to that point (which was about 10 others) except Maya's Monarchy. All from one tech that one civ didn't have. A truly beatiful turn.

I knew as soon as Map Making kicked in Maya would be settling the little islands, and the French the one to the West, so I changed a granary build to Galley in 1075BC and redirected some settlers to those islands nice and early.

Maya are paying me back now though, since some of 'my' territory to the North has been neglected and not yet settled. I am currently playing a game of peek-a-bo with a Mayan galley using some warriors and a worker. I can't hold out but a settler is coming, and they wont settle too close.

	05-03-2004 23:19									#40
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Ducki: I've not gotten around to writing anything up, as my shoulder is still acting up. Not being able to spend more than 10-15 minutes at the comp in a stretch is really hampering my civ3 style.

But my one and only secret to Demigod competition is... *drumroll* The Great Library. On Emperor I find getting it actually slows down my research if I wait for the morons to research things for me. But on demigod they are definitely faster than anything I can hope to compete with.

Having the GL also allows me to build up economic infrastructure before I build up tech infrastructure, which simplifies matters a great deal.

	05-03-2004 23:24									#41
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In the second game (which I am playing) I have to say I don't rate the GL strategy at all highly. You start with no tech for prebuilding a wonder or palace, you don't want to deviate to get one, and you are unlikely to be able to trade to get one early enough. In addition you can stay in touch up until Education when the GL expires quite easily.

	05-03-2004 23:25									#42
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Oh, right, that's the other monopoly Sumeria has, Literature. I'm cutting it close on having to switch my Palace prebuild(10 turns now, I think) trying to let someone else get Lit so I don't pay monopoly price - if I could broker it, I'd buy it in a heartbeat, but I've broken everyone else it seems(for the time being) and won't have a buyer to mitigate the cost.

I will bite the bullet, however, if my Palace gets to 2 turns to go and noone else has it, though I can't imagine that - unless they are ALL researching a government since they can't afford to buy it from Sumeria. I'd kill to get Republic - and might have to.

	06-03-2004 01:17									#43
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Played this game up through the Middle Ages.

Things were pretty tough early on. Got way behind in techs, and managed to research Writing before the Mayans and Greeks, which gave me a chance to catch up in techs (though not entirely). Have most of the island colonized except the tundra to the north. Things looking interesting, need to get Republic.

Will have a real report on the game later.

	06-03-2004 02:26									#44
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"Just out of the Ancient Age and have recently become a Republic - then watched in horror as net income quickly became negative. The culprit? Unit support cost of course, so the next few hundred years were spent turning all towns into cites."

Yes, I try to get over size 6 before I switch in as many cities as I can.

	06-03-2004 02:42									#45
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Getting the GL at Demi is high cost effort and tends to not pay off real well. I guess it could be valid, but after Emperor, I tend not to go for it.

The AI's will blow into Education so fast and shut it down. I have run into the problem that ducki has, were your palace prebuild is about to finsih and you do not have Lit. Very scary, especially if you have no wonder to fall back on. I do remember recently having to make a colloseum when I could not land Lit, but that was at Sid.

	06-03-2004 02:45									#46
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So Thriller you are playing the original map, not the demi2 one?
Why was it changed again? Lack of resources or something.

	06-03-2004 08:05									#47
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I have run into the problem that ducki has, were your palace prebuild is about to finsih and you do not have Lit. Very scary, especially if you have no wonder to fall back on.

It gets worse - Sumeria completed the GLib the next turn.
/sigh
Time to max income and hope I can appear to be making enough money to buy Feudalism.

The up side to Sumeria building it outright is...
...his monopoly on Literature is unbroken(as far as I know) and therefore, there is no cascade from that.


Edit: Here's my save, am I in ok shape for Demigod or what?

	06-03-2004 08:36									#48
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To tell you the truth I don't know if a few wins at Demi and nothing but losses at Sid qualifies me to make a response.

BUt hey, that never stopped me before.

Iwould have like to see you grab the land by Satsuma right after
Tokyo to prevent the Maya settlement. Then take two curraghs and stick them by the cow at Satsuma to prevent any one from going around to search. Just block it.

Then fill in as fast as you can the land south (iceland) to get in position to stop anyone that ties to settle.

Edo and Nara could wait as I try to get the circumference settled.
The three settlers plus those two would be close to enough to prevent any new settlements.

After that you are going to have to go get some more land.

Go get em.

	06-03-2004 08:38									#49
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How's this for insane - Republic got traded around and 3 civs have Mono, but Sumeria still has his monopoly on Engineering and Feudalism - I'm thinking I'll buy Republic, revolt immediately, 2 turns of anarchy, and I should have 3-4 turns of leeway for the higher income(I hope) to buy me Feudal before I build a really expensive cathedral. Plus that's a few more turns the AI can trade.

Eep.

	06-03-2004 08:41									#50
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Hey ducki.

Your progress looks okay. You have a lot of cities with Granaries, but your city sizes are small and you don't have all that many. You could probably also use some more Workers.

Here's a screenshot of my game at 210 BC (closest to your save that I could get). Please ignore the disorder in Satsuma.

	06-03-2004 11:22									#51
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 So Thriller you are playing the original map, not the demi2 one? Why was it changed again? Lack of resources or something.

Yes, I played the original one. Would have liked for others to try it too so I have something to compare against....seems liuke DrSpike is the only taker so far.

Yes, the main problem was resources....(although the REAL problem is that this is Demigod )

	06-03-2004 11:51									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Thriller Yes, the main problem was resources....(although the REAL problem is that this is Demigod )

I don't know the extra land vs the lack of resources is a close call.

	06-03-2004 17:00									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Thriller Yes, I played the original one. Would have liked for others to try it too so I have something to compare against....seems liuke DrSpike is the only taker so far. Yes, the main problem was resources....(although the REAL problem is that this is Demigod )

I'm playing demi2, but I will play yours after.

	06-03-2004 17:22									#54
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Ducki I took a look at your save. I don't think there is anything terrible about it, but I'm not getting a feel that you have a plan, a direction. It looks like you went for the GL and failed, and this cost you and left you directionless.

I know I am going to get shouted at as always for saying this, but the GL is often just a crutch for weaker players. I wont say never build it, but you need a good reason. There is no problem on this map staying in touch until education, and 400 shields early on that should be spent on expansion is way way too big. We can see the effects on your expansion in the save, and Maya should not be grabbing your land - you (and the rest of us!) don't have enough as it is. The GL was built in my game on turn 108, and I wouldn't have built it by then even if I had tried and had the tech. As I said above, I consider a GL opening highly questionable here.

Big cities are not as good here as covering the meagre land you have fast. I went with some granaries early to give me some nice pop kicking cities. I only lost one spot in the middle of the tundra to the Greeks (whilst I was blocking the Maya!!) and I got all 3 islands. Also, at 270BC I had at least 3 times as many workers........you definitely need more at this stage.

Anyways, hope that helps, and this is IMO a tough map on which to play your first or one of your first demigod games. Keep plugging away, and your civ will surely prosper in the end.

	06-03-2004 18:19									#55
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You know what, DrSpike? You're absolutely right.
I think my thinking was "Good lord, I can barely afford to stay in the middle of tech(as opposed to dead last) and the Maya are moving fast so the free tech and extra culture sure would help."
On the other hand, learning to play at Emperor, I have come to accept the fact that none of the Ancient Wonders have my name on them, and the loss would not be so bad if I could buy into Feudalism.

Dead right on the workers, I've since started remedying that, along with the expansion to the extent I can.

Still, you're right, I feel into the "I can't keep up, I better build the GLib," trap and should have known better.


One oddity I've noticed, I seem to get riots on the turn that a town grows into unhappiness instead of the normal turn after. Is that part of Demi-god or do I just need to look closer? I may have been overtired.

Thanks for taking a look, guys.

	06-03-2004 18:32									#56
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There are no differences regarding how unhappiness works that I'm aware of other than the obvious 2nd citizen being unhappy.

	06-03-2004 23:10									#57
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Same as all levels. You grow and if it creates more unhappy citizens than happy ones you will get disorder next run.

	06-03-2004 23:18									#58
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Ducki if you let the gov manage the city, it will often take a specialist and put it to work and cause the unhappiness.

Dr Spike I would agree that blocking is a priority in that map. If anyone landed a settler combo, I would hope to have troops nearby that could capture some slaves.

The GL will probably not pay off well in this map as contacts will be lacking. I am not fond of it anyway.

	07-03-2004 00:00									#59
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Unless govs were enabled in the sav, I never let them manage anything.

	07-03-2004 02:30									#60
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I figured that, but it is easy to over look things when you get a save form here. I am always finding they have turned on autosave.
Also I like to have the color blind help on and that is often turned off. It gives the civ names and I find that helpful now that the colors are so similar.

The worst is the wait at end being off, why?