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DrSpike
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Enthusiastic member of Apolyton
Sep 2001
time: 05:34
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Opening
Tricky. The Japanese make you face the difficult archi choice between Pottery and Alphabet first, and before you know the size of the continent to boot. I chose Pottery, but I could make an equally good case for Alphabet. Ultimately it's an empirical question here and I believe a posteriori that Pottery was the best choice. It all boils down to whether or not you can get writing early enough to trade it. If you can't then the benefit from an early granary in the capital is outweighed by the effect of having a better chance of trading writing if you forgo pottery.
This choice meant Alphabet came reasonably late, so I didn't rush to found my second city on the coastal cows. Instead I built it closer to the capital on the road towards the cows, to squeeze out every trade arrow. We must get writing early enough to justify the pottery gamble.
I used the capital to kick 2.5 vet warriors and a settler per 10 turns from 2 to 4, thus freeing up all later cities to pursue other objectives. The key, as so often, is efficient expansion here. I expanded quite slowly really, but efficiently, with the early workers that the other cities could build making sure no tile was left unimproved. The coastal cities would end up doing curraghs and workers, and the inland city a barracks then workers.
 Attachment: clipboard01.jpg
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DrSpike
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Enthusiastic member of Apolyton
Sep 2001
time: 05:34
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We decided Code of Laws was our best shot, with an eye on Republic. It worked out quite well, with Sumeria getting it after I was about halfway done, and I bought it from them and made some further trades. I went for a 50 turn Republic which I felt would be ok on this map, since someone would still need it when we got it so we could pick up Currency, Construction and Literacy. Meanwhile we were building up a nest egg for the middle ages.
Republic came in early AD, and we traded it for the techs mentioned. The money gave us enough to buy one middle age tech, which once again was enough to trade (oiled by some more money and Republic) for the other 2 initial techs. We went hell for leather for Theology, but this is the time where things get tricky. All the wonders were triggering GAs and some AIs, particularly Sumeria were shooting into the lead. Also this was just the break even point for switching to republic, so things weren't buzzing for a few turns yet.
Attachment: clipboard04.jpg
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Aqualung71
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Lord Desolator of the Desolation Row, C3CDG
Oct 2002
time: 12:34
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My game was just becoming too hard and time intensive. Because of the restricted size of my empire, I wasn't able to keep up in research, despite an immense amount of MM involving worker pop-adds, terra-forming, switching labourers between cities to ensure all tiles were used, hospital builds and more pop-adds in selected coastal cities. By the time I got Fission and Rocketry I was behind at least Ecology and Computers and probably more.
The French declared war again on me in the Modern age. They concentrated their ground forces on my Coal city away on the Viking/Sumerian/Mongol continent. Luckily I had been airlifting tanks and infantry there for quite some time in a build-up to take over Scandinavia, so defence wasn't a real problem. They were also hitting me with about 20 bombers every turn, killing pop points and destroying improvements – in short, reaping havoc with my painstakingly crafted efficient empire, which annoyed the crap outta me! So it became draining and then WW started kicking in. I was seriously considering a switch to Communism, though I know that may not be such a good move in a relatively small empire. But the reduction in support costs and the luxury slider saving would probably more than offset the loss of bonus commerce, and corruption redistributions wouldn't have affected me much.
In the end, I was behind the French and Mongols in tech, and it was going to take me some time to build enough military to strike back at the French, and the planned Viking invasion was still a distant dream. I would have been hard pressed to build the SS first, and Domination would have been a serious drag. So I bailed out with a UN victory in 1645AD. Won the vote 6-1 with 3 abstentions, being France (at war), Vikings (who I warred with previously) and Sumeria (who were annoyed because they broke a trade deal with us!). Interestingly, Joan destroyed her own chances by moving into Fascism a few turns before I built the UN, which resulted in her pop dropping from 21% to below the Mongols at 18%.
Overall, a tough game due to the limited land area available. And not a very satisfying way to win I guess. But a win nevertheless.
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Dominae
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Might as well post a report on this game (demi2), since I'll probably have forgotten all the important details after I'm done with AU502.
A little preamble/summary.
I knew I wanted to win either by Conquest or Domination in this game; Japan holds a special place in my warmongering heart. I also wanted this game to be "different" somehow, not because I'm so bored with Demigod that I need to challenge myself (far from it!), but because I wanted to explore a different strategy.
Here's the strategy I chose: keep the tech pace as slow as possible. Here's how I implemented this strategy:
1. Avoid doing any research of my own.
2. Keep the AI civs at war with each other.
3. Refrain from trading Luxuries unless necessary.
The third point simply forces the AI to use more of its resources to keep its populace happy, usually in the form of Entertainers. Every Laborer that an AI must transform into an Entertainer means a much less efficient empire, and therefore slower tech rate.
The second point is pretty standard; we all know that a civ in Monarchy/Communism simply does not research as fast as one in Republic/Democracy. Those civs that stubbornly remain in representative goverments need to pool more and more resources into handling WW. Without access to many Luxuries (see above), this again means taking Laborers off the land.
The first point is a little more interesting. Here's a summary of what it involves:
a. Research Pottery, Alphabet, Writing and Literature, and no more.
b. Never build Libraries or Universities.
c. Use the Great Library to keep up.
d. Steal techs after Astronomy.
Essentially I went 100% Taxes for the entire game. I'm not claiming that this is a new strategy; way back in the earlier versions of stock Civ3 this was the most efficient thing to do due to weird tech devaluation. But to the extent that I've applied this strategy here, it's certainly new to me.
I'm really big on the Steal Tech ability these days. I'm not really sure what the success rate on "Safely" is, but it's high enough that it becomes cost-effective to steal techs instead of buying them outright from the AI (and, of course, researching them yourself). Between paying the AI 2500 Gold for a tech, or stealing the tech for 2000 Gold at a 75%+ success rate, I'll gladly steal the tech. It keeps the tech pace down by keeping money out of the AIs' pockets (it also prevents them from upgrading...a nice side effect), and me rich. With the numerous civs present on a Large map, and semi-exclusive trading circles formed around military alliances, it's possible to trade most stolen techs for a couple more.
Does all this work? Pretty well, I think. In the early Industrial era (when I stopped playing), I have relative tech parity with the rest of the world, only behind Economics and Free Artistry (no need for them). No Libraries; four techs researched on my own.
Clearly this "no research" strategy can be made to work, but it's still not clear to me if it's better, equivalent to a more standard style of play. On the one hand, doing your own research speeds up the tech pace and thus presumably leads to faster victories. Then again, I could probably finish this game (by Domination) in ~1400AD, which is about on par with what I usually do on Demigod (non-Pangea). From another perspective, it's seems to me like the "no research" strategy puts the game into your control much faster, because the only thing that saves the AI once you go on the offensive is better units (mainly, Nationalism). And you can go on the offensive much faster if you save all your Commerce for upgrades. One could argue that speeding up the tech pace helps the human player reach Military Tradition or Steam Power faster, which invariably is better for the human than the AI. I suppose that makes sense in the general case, but on this map (with an isolated start)? I would like to see someone post a full report of such a warmonger-research approach, for comparison's sake.
Now that I've taken up so much of your time with the preamble, I'll proceed to the (shorter) report.
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Dominae
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Unlike many of you, I moved the Settler NE onto the Horses during my first turn. There's almost never a time when you want to disconnect Horses, even as Japan (to save 10 Shields off Cavalry?). And I want to explore the possibility of exploring (ha!) with Chariots instead of Warriors, which only Japan can do from the first turn.
Upon founding Kyoto in 3950BC, I saw a Goody Hut waiting to be popped once her borders expanded. Fearing Barbs, I decided to switch my first build to a Temple instead of a Chariot (the Chariot would be complete a turn or two before border expansion, opening up the possibility of Barbs). I was still looking for some way to make this game "different" (the "no research" strat only occurred to me later), and Temple-Chariot as a build queue is certainly different. An ultra-early Temple is also great for Culture, ensuring your capital appears in the Top 5 cities for millenia to come.
Oh, I went Pottery 100%. Without a bonus Food in sight, it seemed pretty important.
After a bit of exploration, I suspected I was stuck alone on an island; I had still not contacted any other civ by 2630BC, and could already see the coast in most directions. Thus I figured I needed to get Curraghs in the water as soon as possible. It was around this time that I started thinking the Great Library might be a good idea.
In the screenshot below, I've just completed a Granary in Kyoto. "The plan" at this point was to create a pump using the two Game, and a coastal Curragh-producer on the western coast. These two cities would then support Kyoto's effort to build the Great Library. I ended up placing the coastal city on the Incense (a bad spot) in order to access the Incense ASAP and thus keep the research up.
Attachment: hai, 2630bc.jpg
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Dominae
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Things went according to the plan outlined above. Research toward Literature was much slower than I thought, and without a sizeable prebuild item (Granary was the most expensive thing I could build at that point) Kyoto could not really get started on the Great Library. So, in a pretty awkward phase of the game, she built Reg. Chariots and Settlers/Workers, waiting to start on something more ambitious. I ended up building a Barracks there anyway when I got tired of waiting (Reg. units are an eyesore!).
I'm certain this was not horribly efficient, but I was hoping to make up for that with my 4-turn pump. Osaka finally reached full 4-turn pump status in 1375BC. It took a while because I had to build a Temple there first to access the second Game and get up to +5fpt.
Tokyo, my third city, built five Curraghs before proceeding to a Barracks.
In the screenshot below, I've just contacted three civs: French, Mayans and Sumerians (I was pretty happy about my Curragh surviving the treacherous crossing to France). Each civ was, of course, further than me in tech, but none had discovered Writing yet. I was not able to trade for Masonry to start a prebuild (the Pyramids were completed very early, probably with a Great Leader, so I would certainly have lost many Shields - phew!).
All those early Temples and Barracks sure slowed down my tech pace. Problem is, there was nothing much else to build (Reg. Chariots?!). If I were to do it again I probably would have started my military buildup a bit later, focusing on Settlers and Workers exclusively until Literature.
Attachment: hai, 1225bc.jpg
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Dominae
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The 1000 or so years saw my Curraghs circle the globe and contact all civs but the Incans and Dutch, who were hiding where my Curraghs could not reach.
I got back in the game in terms of tech when I discovered Writing. Here's what I've got in my notes regarding this:
Writing for Bronze Working, Masonry, Mysticism and 152 Gold (French)
Writing and 82 Gold for Polytheism (Greeks)
Polytheism for Map Making and 21 Gold (Mongols)
Map Making for Iron Working and 213 Gold (Greeks)
Map Making for Horseback Riding, Mathematics and 7 Gold (French)
Map Making for Construction (French)
That was a fun turn. As with most games where you're planning to build the Great Library, it ends up being pretty darn efficient to continue trading for techs you would normally get through the Great Library anyway. The ones that I reall could not wait for were Construction and Map Making, as I wanted to start on Harbors and Aqueducts as soon as possible.
With all the Gold from these and other trades, I bought Embassies with all civs 530AD, the turning after I switched to Monarchy. Republic was still a ways off, and as a Religious civ that planned to have a lot of units hanging around, it seemed like a good idea.
Once I started trading, Kyoto could finally begin on prebuild. By that time all relevant tiles around her had been improved, and Workers were joined immediately until size 12. With three MPs, a Luxury and a Temple, I did not have to keep the Lux slider too high, as I recall (the screenshot below says only 10%, woo-hoo!).
The screenshot below is from the turn before the Great Library's completion in 230BC. As you can see, the Mayans snuck a city onto my island, which was pretty annoying but not fatal to my cause. I was hoping for it to flip, but it never did. I'll discuss city placement and function below.
Attachment: hai, 250bc.jpg
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Dominae
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I got the following techs from the Great Library:
Currency
Republic
Monotheism
Feudalism
Engineering
Invention
Theology
Gunpowder
Education
I had fully embarked upon the "no research" route at this point, steering clear of Libraries and putting all my resources into building units and generating Gold.
An interesting thing then happened: Sumeria completely pulled ahead in the tech race. I'm not talking about a tech or two: by the time I hit Education (when the Vikings finally traded for it from Sumeria), the Sumerians were the only ones to have Gunpowder, Music Theory, Astronomy, Navigation and Banking! A remember a while ago DaveMcW saying that when he builds the Great Library he gifts all techs he knows to other civs, so that one cannot pull ahead and ruin his day. At the time I did not understand what he meant...now I do!
Sumeria's impressive tech lead painted a big fat target on itself. I was prebuilding Leo's and just knew I was going to conquer somebody with Samurai, I simply had not decided yet who. The French had the most land area available and would undoubtedly prove to be the strongest late-game competitor. The Mayans were close by and, with the help of the Temple of Artemis, were becoming a major cultural threat. The Vikings were small but technologically advanced, and would provide and nice base of operations for campaigns against Sumeria and Mongolia. But in the end, Sumeria made the most sense: I wanted to keep the tech rate low, and I Sumeria was a major obstacle to this, since other civs would invariably research stuff Sumeria did not have, pushing everyone ahead but me. I also thought I could extort techs from Sumeria before its permanent demise, but this ended up never happening.
SO, I built Leonardo's Workshop in 350AD. A few turns later I connected Iron and upgraded 40 Horsemen to Samurai (with a bunch more Horsemen still waiting). Ten turns after that, I was in position to assault Sumeria (more on that below).
Here's a screenshot of my empire just after the completion of Leo's. As you can see, the placement is pretty tight. This was necessary to get as many Horsemen and Galleys built as possible. Each of my military-producing cities (almost all of them) were optimized to reach 10spt and stop there. Here's a brief breakdown of city function:
Worker-pumps: Osaka, Nagoya
Wonder-producers: Kyoto (later, Tokyo and Kagoshima)
Galley-producers: Izumo, Satsuma, Matsuyama
Horsemen-producers: all other core cities
As you can see from the screenshot, after the mass upgrade, I took a break from producing military units to turn all my cities into cash cows. This involved liberal use of Gold for rushes, and joining of Workers to reach size 12. The only city that could not reach max size due to tile shortage was Nara. Notice the city just SW of Edo (I forget the name): it was put there as a pure military camp. I ended up never disbanding it, however (and probably never would until game's end...too useful).
Attachment: hai, 420ad.jpg
This has been downloaded 85 time(s).
Last edited by Dominae on 20-03-2004 at 11:58
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Dominae
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Due a pretty big mistake on my part, I only had 13 Galleys available to take Samurai from Japan to their targets in Sumeria. 26 Sumurai were enough, but with double that number (which I had), I could have proceeded to the Mongols immediately. Ah well.
France was getting pretty big at this point, although remained technologically inferior (no idea why). I really wanted to get Joan into a fight so that I would not have to worry about a KAI too soon. Luckily, she declared war on Sumeria of all civs in 450AD, 7 turns before my own declaration. With France taken care of, it was pretty cheap to bribe most of the relevant civs to ally with me against Sumeria:
520AD: Declare war on Sumerians
Alliance versus Sumerians with Mongols for 80 Gold
Alliance versus Sumerians with Mayans for Incense
Alliance versus Sumerians with Vikings for World Map and 197 Gold
I had signed ROPs with all civs but Sumeria at this point to keep them happy with me. This served me well as I was able to get into position to attack Sumeria through Viking lands, shaving a few turns off the process by using their Roads.
Oh, I forgot to mention that another reason I decided that the Sumerians were to be my target is that they did not have access to Horses, Iron or Gunpowder. Resource scarcity sure reared its ugly in this game! Another way of looking at it is that I capitalized on this by attacking Sumeria before Mongolia could do the same and become a KAI. That's the way of looking at it that keeps the game fun, and I like to have fun so that's the way I looked at it.
The screenshot below is from the very turn I declared war on Sumeria. That stack of Samurai is only 26 strong, but there's an equal number on the way. I never needed those, though, as Samurai swords cut through almost anything like butter, especially Enkidus and Longbowmen. 13 turns later mainland Sumeria was mine.
Attachment: hai, 520ad.jpg
This has been downloaded 87 time(s).
Last edited by Dominae on 20-03-2004 at 11:59
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Dominae
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(Wow, this report is getting pretty long.)
I got nice and lucky with Great Leaders:
580AD, versus Sumerians
630AD, Sumerians
720AD, Greeks
840AD, Sumerians (the turn they "went away forever")
870AD, Vikings
880AD, Vikings
930AD, Mongols
950AD, Mongols
1020AD, Mongols
All but two of these became Armies (pure Samurai or pure Cavalry). One rushed the Forbidden Palace in Ur, one the Pentagon. It's the first time I've ever completed the Pentagon before Military Tradition and the Military Academy.
With the end of my Golden Age in 720AD, I start a revolution in order to become a Republic. I did not want to do so before attacking Sumeria, as I did not have enough Luxuries yet, and felt that prolonged campaigns against the Sumerians, Vikings and Mongols would undermine the potency of my GA.
Throughout my GA I built Samurai instead of Horsemen in my military cities, since most of them were above 14spt and building 30-Shield units would be wasteful. This was probably a mistake, since with the great Leo's engine going a few wasted Shields is nothing.
Once in Republic, I begin to trade for Luxuries after this:
Steal Banking from Mongols "Safely" for ~2200 Gold
Astronomy for Banking and 117 Gold (Mayans)
Chemistry for Astronomy and 96 Gold (French)
Navigation did not come much later, and with access to all 8 Luxs I felt I could take on the Vikings then the Mongols. The Vikings, with 3 good cities in their entire empire, fell pretty fast. I was waiting for Steam Power to take on the Mongols in a RR-Cavalry blitz, but Temujin knew something was up and declared war preemptively in 910AD (allying with the Greeks, who hated me since day one).
Below is a screenshot of the first turn of the war against the Mongols. I'm bracing myself for whatever they throw at me; their army is "Average" to mine of 60+ Cavalry and 6 Armies.
Attachment: hai, 910ad.jpg
This has been downloaded 86 time(s).
Last edited by Dominae on 20-03-2004 at 11:49
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Dominae
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The Mongols did not actualy put up much of a fight, probably because I allied with whichever civ was supplying them with Saltpeter. In the middle of the war the Greeks were annoying enough to reach the Industrial era and get Nationalism for free, teaching it to the Mongols.
I guess this is where I have to say that Armies in C3C are pretty darn silly. I must have taken down all of Mongolia with my 3 Cavalry and 2 Samurai Armies alone. The AI almost never attacks Armies, so all you need to do is park a couple next to their cities. The next turn, you use their 4 movement points (if Cavalry) Army to destroy their main defenders (rarely more than 4), then mop up any Longbowmen or whatever with your regular units.
Mongolia fell, and I got myself into tech parity in 1000AD with the following sequence:
Steal Nationalism from French "Safely" for 3028 Gold
Nationalism for Democracy and Medicine (Vikings)
Nationalism for Steam Power, Music Theory and 13gpt (Mayans)
With Industrialization I saw that I had most of the world's sources of Coal within my borders, although none were connected yet, nor within my borders! I hurried to build a Colony. In preparation for Railroads, all my core cities (apart from the capital) popped out a Worker every turn until they reached sizes 6-7 (should have been 7, but I forgot about the reduced upkeep). This was easy to do because all of these cities were, as you recall, producing 10spt and were using coastal tiles for added Commerce, so they could keep up a rate of one Worker every turn.
That's when I decided to stop playing, with the game well in hand. At this point it's a "simple" matter of conquering everyone but France to achieve a Domination victory.
The question I pose to you, dear reader, is: what's the quickest way to win this?
Doc claimed that peaceful games are more difficult that warmonger games, because they require better game knowledge. I disagreed. So I turn my game at this point over to the community, asking what's the best way to seal this thing up. There are many decisions to be made at this point in the game, and I would like to know whether they're trivial or not. Certainly one path is better than the others...which is it? What would you do?
I'll include the save below for you guys to check out, but for now, some stats (the minimap is, of course, most revealing):
Date: 1090AD
Major Civs: French, Mayans, Greeks
Minor Civs: Egyptians, Dutch Incans
Government: Republic
Luxuries: 6
Resources: All, Saltpeter and Iron disconnectable anytime
Wonders: All relevant, apart from Smith's (big mistake there)
Workers: 102 (almost finished Railroads)
Cavalry: 61
Galleons: 23
Armies: 6 (mostly Cavalry, a couple of Samurai)
Libraries: 2 
Attachment: hai, 1090ad.jpg
This has been downloaded 83 time(s).
Last edited by Dominae on 20-03-2004 at 11:54
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Dominae
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I would really appreciate your thoughts on what I should do from this point on. Help Dominae win as quickly as possible!
Just hit Enter to end the current turn. You'll see a Mongol city flip, but not to worry, you should be able to eradicate the Mongols forever during the next turn.
Thanks for reading.
Edit: In case you're wondering, I failed my Steal Tech attempt only once (out of four), at the cost of ~3000 Gold.
 Attachment: hai decisions, 1090 ad.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).
Last edited by Dominae on 20-03-2004 at 12:01
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11-03-2004 15:31
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