27-02-2004 20:25									#1
	Turn 181 : 660AD Enter the AD-FREE zone

News

GoW are trading Mil Trad to Lego for ToG. I can't be bothered to get upset anymore, it's becoming satirical, and I'm thinking "ho hum, lets just watch Lego nick our Wonders and laugh". Another 3 turns till Lego have ToG, so there goes Medicine...

Cyclone completes Worker
Sandstorm completes Worker
Monsoon completes Marketplace, starts University

	27-02-2004 20:31									#2
	Got spare money?

I can understand GoW's logic on this one. They're not helping Lego, since lego have no use for MT now that we're not invading. And GoW get ToG earlier, and hence can start on medicine earlier, which helps us.

The flipside is that Lego didn't know they didn't need MT, so they would have wasted 4 turns researching it. Don't think they really thought it through properly, if they are indeed trying to embargo Lego.

Do we believe GoW saying that they are close to Copernicus?

	27-02-2004 20:44									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

At least we are getting under lego's skin vis a vis Sistine. check the agreement boys, its legit. I bet they are thinking any turn now we will complete it and they will have a 500 shield university.

re: copernicus. we are closer to that than GoW. the question is, are we closer to newton as well. probably 3 turns til Lego gets ToG. Gow is probably what, 6 turns from completing cpernicus now...


Letting GoW take copern would be dopey, lego would probably just build both newton and sistine in the meanwhile, us holding the proverbial bag.

	27-02-2004 20:56									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

CH-

Are you still enjoying this game?

Is there anything I could personally do to take some of the load off you? This game is incredibly taxing and frustrating dealing with all these shifting alliances and such. We've already lost a who's who of civ3 players: barclay, dominae, aeson, notyoueither, sir ralph, shiber. I would hate to lose you to burn out as well.

	27-02-2004 21:01									#5
	The Turn Enter the AD-FREE zone

Start

Cyclone completes Worker
Sandstorm completes Worker
Monsoon completes Marketplace, starts University

349g Steam Power in 5 turns @80%, 502bpt, -56gpt


Moves

SS worker moves 444
Cyclone worker moves 888
1 workers add to fortress build at Hurrican-9 and completes
6 workers fortress Sandstorm-6
2 workers add to fortress at Blizz-32 and complete
12 out of our 13 mountain coastal tiles are now fortressed, the last completes next turn
There are 5 hills - 4 on the west coast and one on the north - to be done - (finish after after rails)
3 workers from Arashi start Fortress WW-9

Shortrush granary in Inchon (1s) for CH in 4 turns
Mine WoC-1 for extra 1s - while aqua building.

1 Galleon moves 6666 out of Hurricane, other moves 6222
NE Galley moves 222
N Galley moves 666
W galley moves 222

Warrior BB-3 moves toward OG for disband. Knights shuffle round.

Change WW Hanging Gdns to Lib
Change Hurricane to Copernicus
Change Diss Oracle to CH


Current Builds

Eli : Aqua in 33
Inchon : CH in 4
WoC : Aqua in 14
Inchoff : Harb in 6
Diss : Courthouse in 1
Santa Ana : Lib in 6
Blizzard : Harb in 2
Monsoon : Uni in 19
Arashi : ToE in 17 via Palace
WW : Lib in 1
Tempest : Newton in 2 (shows Sistine)
Hurricane : Copernicus in 1
OG : Mkt in 17
EotS : Hoover Dam (via Colosseum)
BB : Bank in 1
Tornado : CH in 1
Typhoon : Lib in 5
Sufa : Lib in 2


Diplo

Resent ToG accepted to GoW. It's worth trying to persuade them to reconsider.


Other

At turn end : 345g Steam Power in 5 turns @80%, 502bpt, -53gpt


[b]Next Turn[b]

Lots of build completions to look forward too.

	27-02-2004 21:04									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Hurricane will build copernicus next turn
Tempest will bulid newtons in two turns.

Woot! FU lego/gw/nd


What are the plans for those cities post wonders?

	27-02-2004 21:07									#7
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel CH- Are you still enjoying this game? Is there anything I could personally do to take some of the load off you? This game is incredibly taxing and frustrating dealing with all these shifting alliances and such. We've already lost a who's who of civ3 players: barclay, dominae, aeson, notyoueither, sir ralph, shiber. I would hate to lose you to burn out as well.

I agree with this, the game itself is very taxing. If only I knew I could handle it, I would do something more official...

I have to correct one thing, though: Dominae never really was involved in the GS game, he decided in the first few weeks to become a lurker. He didn't burn out like the others have. It is the ISDG (and the AU) where he is most active, he never was here.

DeepO

	27-02-2004 21:08									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Sleepy - thankyou, yes please that would be great It's time for a change, and it's starting to show. I've been hanging on for these science wonders - that'll be a good place to draw breath. Just ... two ... more ... turns ...

I have to rush now, but I won't send the saved turn for a few hours, so as to get a message out to GoW later. Lego don't have ToG for another 2 turns, I think. We need GoW researching medicine now, while we're steam-hammerin' through Steam Power. If they'd gone with it last turn when we send it, they'd have already got started on it.

	27-02-2004 21:11									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

We're still not guaranteed to get those wonders though - it's not like SP where being 1 turn to go and no-one else having completed the wonder means you can't possibly lose it. We still can in principle.

Still, we can always build Sistine as a backup plan.

Our building is coming along quite nicely now. Good sftuff CH.

	27-02-2004 21:12									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Further: GoW can't beat us if they think they can do it with their capital. Not even Newton's either. Lego can't take Newton... so that's also good news. And Lego trading ToG to GoW is also not exactly a problem from Lego's side. It is from GoW's side, though... if they gotten it from us, they could have gotten it already, and started on Medicine right now, instead of in 3 turns.

What we need is a agreement from GoW that they can trade Medicine to Lego, but we get a 1 or 2 turn advantage over them. We will need that for ToE... if Lego starts on SM before us, we're no certain of ToE.

DeepO

	27-02-2004 21:13									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Ah thanks for that DeepO. Its been so long, the memory is a bit fuzzy, you know. I wasn't all that active back in the beginning (the great players here were a bit intimidating) and couldn't remember how active he was.

All of those players but Aeson still carry the GS shield, I wonder if they've lurked recently.


Vulture: we created an embassy with GoW in 600ad, they were showing copernicus in 14 turns (but they could possibly do it in 13), so we are 6-7 turns ahead of them for copernicus and newton.

The question is, should we send a note to them before we send our turn saying we will complete copernicus next turn, and sorry, but we've been building it for quite a while, and assurances from one team out of 3 competing isn't good enough?

I would much rather have copernicus than sistine, which is essentially the trade, though sistine is obviously not a guarantee. We really don't need the happiness all that much, do we? even if we were in a state of war with other teams, and thus no luxs, would we need it? I don't think so. I think cathedrals/colleseums in the largest cities are sufficient. Not that many of our cities will actually go above size 12 in the game.

	27-02-2004 21:16									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

We want both Science wonders, no doubt. I told GoW in the chat we were very close to finishing both of them.

	27-02-2004 21:18									#13
	Got spare money?

I wouldn't send to GoW that we will complete next turn, you never know if they somehow mess up our plans. However, we can say we'll be a lot faster then their capital can be, as they know we've established an embassy.

As to Sistine: Indeed, we won't really need it, we're already maxed out in most cities... also, and maybe they don't realize that, it's not because of cheap cathedrals we would gain future profit from that, our cathedrals are already built...

DeepO

	27-02-2004 22:07									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I have to wonder if GoW and ND still see us as a big threat. If so, throwing a monkey wrench in our attempts to get the science wonders makes sense.

I really suspect they want to hurt us a bit. That is smart from their point of view. They need to slow down us and Lego. They are probably figuring that letting out some air in our tires now cost them very little. They may even be able to fient complete innocence.

I can't believe they don't know what they are doing. They have had a war with us, not Lego. Human nature is to hold a grudge.
This can cloud judgement.

	27-02-2004 22:12									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I am glad to see others are starting to get upset about the Sistine sham. Anyway we need those science wonders. I do not feel any obligation to tell GoW anything, they have not exactly been dealing wiht us on the best possible level.

Trading MT to Lego for a tech that they knew we would give them, is just unconscienceable.

What ND did is the same, but I had expected less from them.

	27-02-2004 23:16									#16
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

vox has responded with an offer for democracy.

100 gold now

3 20 turn lux deals at their option.


Are they frickin kidding? Screw that and them.

	28-02-2004 23:36									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

sleepy, maybe better to tell Vox that we want to do them a favour in taking democracy, but we don't need it atm, and it is not likely we will need it in the near future. 100 gold + 3 20-turn lux deals is way too much if you consider this can only be seen as a gift from us to them. Maybe better to just let it pass for the moment, and we'll get back to them later.

DeepO

	29-02-2004 02:21									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel vox has responded with an offer for democracy. 100 gold now 3 20 turn lux deals at their option. Are they frickin kidding? Screw that and them.

What a joke. All the friggin' teams, with the exception of Lego, are just irrational and / or stupid. Veeeery frustrating.

* Theseus should not be on any diplo duties at this point in time.

	29-02-2004 02:32									#19
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I sent a message to GoW politely asking them to reconsider the wisdom of their decision to get ToG from Lego (see log). I didn't mention the NDA we'd need, as it hardly seemed sales pitch. I suppose I should follow up with clarification. They have the turn now.

	29-02-2004 02:54									#20
	Got spare money?

Sent NTA clarification to GoW here .

	29-02-2004 03:01									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Theseus What a joke. All the friggin' teams, with the exception of Lego, are just irrational and / or stupid. Veeeery frustrating.

I've got a new acronym. Diablo II fans in particular might like it.

BAAL : Bobian Alliance to Assist Lego

	29-02-2004 03:15									#22
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Hurricane will build copernicus next turn Tempest will bulid newtons in two turns. Woot! FU lego/gw/nd What are the plans for those cities post wonders?

Banks, probably.

	29-02-2004 03:18									#23
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel vox has responded with an offer for democracy. 100 gold now 3 20 turn lux deals at their option. Are they frickin kidding? Screw that and them.

We could offer them 1 gold for it. After all, it's 1 gold more than they'll get for it anwhere else

	29-02-2004 17:35									#24
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Or, if Vox gifts demo to us, we might move from annoyed to cautious.

Maybe.

	29-02-2004 22:24									#25
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

BAAL, I like. He was able to raise a double. In our case the alliance is very weak and not clear thinking.

I do not know about Vox, but it does look like most parties are over pricing their techs. All teams are in tight races and can not afford to toss away cash.

Ah, but then I am a lousy trader, so what do I know. I have no diplo skills either.

	29-02-2004 22:24									#26
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus We could offer them 1 gold for it. After all, it's 1 gold more than they'll get for it anwhere else

Though having said that, ND are religious. They might offer to pay Lego five luxuries for Vox's Democracy.

	29-02-2004 22:26									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Demo is worth something to use and ND. What is it, 150% worker rate? Very useful after steam.

	29-02-2004 22:35									#28
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I do not know about Vox, but it does look like most parties are over pricing their techs. All teams are in tight races and can not afford to toss away cash.

I've seen various ways to price a tech :

1. Opportunity Cost
What it would cost a Civ to research a tech itself. Direct equivalent in gold of the current beaker price after devaluation. This favours the vendor.

2. Shared Cost
Profit split between vendor and customer - half the full beaker price.

3. Market Value
For non-mandatory techs of varying value, not represented by beaker cost. So Economics, Navigation and Democracy must realistically be sold at market value rather than beaker prices.

Differing expectations of how a tech should be priced can lead to trades not working out.

	01-03-2004 01:18									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Un****ingbelieveable. So the GAUL has totally collapsed over the course of 2 turns?

You know, being possibly the only team besides Lego that acts logically probably makes us awfully predictable...

*sigh*

-Arrian

	01-03-2004 01:55									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: I have to correct one thing, though: Dominae never really was involved in the GS game, he decided in the first few weeks to become a lurker. He didn't burn out like the others have. It is the ISDG (and the AU) where he is most active, he never was here.

This is partly right. I was very much here during the times up to the Vox conflict. I accepted the role of lurker partly because I was afraid of a "too many cooks in the kitchen" situation, partly because I was put out at how Nathan took control of the team in an entirely undemocratic manner (he did well for us, but it certainly was not fun being on the team while he was at the helm).

(Yes, I'm aware that Nathan may be reading. I just think it's finally time someone said this.)

Above, I felt I could get more out of this game by just watching you guys, which turned out to be true. This really is a team of heavyweights.

quote: I wasn't all that active back in the beginning (the great players here were a bit intimidating) and couldn't remember how active he was.

* Dominae is not such a great player, it's just his nick/handle that makes people think so.


Dominae