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Oncle Boris
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Once in a brown moon
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
USSR was not a threat
Was to them. Of course it ain't imperialism if its close to home  .
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And do you think America was lifting a single finger for the populations of Poland, Czechoslovakia, Romania? No, it was not.
I said that the USSR was not a major threat to America, as they fully acknowledged that America's sphere of influence was not their own. Don't you know that both England and America agreed, after WW2, to let EE fall to the USSR? That's how it worked: countries liberated by the Allies became capitalist, countries liberated by the USSR became communist. The USSR didn't have any strong intent to bring Communism elsewhere.
So? It ain't imperialism, when they've stopped aiming for more. They got EE, and then they shut up.
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So you are mad because the US was more successful than the Soviets in installing its own loyal governments around the world?
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Both, when successful, were equally tyrannic. When you look at what the US did to Chile, Indonesia, Vietnam and Nicaragua, you can only recognize that it wasn't any better than what the USSR did to EE.
What pisses me off, however, is to see FVCKING ignorants who think the USSR had some plan of world conquest. That's false. They were happy with EE, and, in fact, it is America that worked hard to bring capitalism everywhere (i.e, opening up the natural resources for their corporation).
USSR's strategy was passive: support the communist guerillas for the facade only. For instance, the Soviet Union never came close to do the effort that was done by the US in Chile or Nicaragua. Even Castro won the war by himself: he started to receive help from the USSR a full year after his coup.
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Africa? Does Angola ring a bell at all? And it wasn't like the Commies didn't help back socialists in Chile and Nicaragua. Oh wait... I guess they did. That whole Comintern thing and backing of foriegn communists doesn't exactly make your claim seem very truthful .
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Yes they DID. Because it was required by prestige. But they didn't really give a FVCK. USSR never sent agents to Chile FIVE YEARS in advance to prepare a coup. The help they gave to the Sandinists was minimal, not because they couldn't do better, but because they didn't really care about South America, which was outside of their 'sphere'.
And about Angola: why is it that it was the only 'successful' communist coup, even though Communism had huge popular support in the whole of Africa? Because, again, the USSR had no diamond mines to protect. America, Britain and France had, and they made sure decolonization would not fvck capitalism up.
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Infiltrating a great amount of another country's government agencies is bit more than the normal course. |
Well, their tactics were on part with America.
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Oncle Boris
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Once in a brown moon
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker
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quote:
Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
Yes, I'm sure the Czechs will agree. |
Idiots. EE fell under Soviet influence, because EE had NEVER been independant. Throughout history, it had been either under Ottoman rule, Prussian, Austrian, Russian, etc.
Stalin took the opportunity left by the demise of Germany- just like America and Britain installed capitalism in the countries they liberated themselves. Once, however, he had annexed this territory, he would obviously do what's required to keep it. Politics 101: 'Internal security', however oppressive it may be, is not imperialism.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Oncle Boris
Stalin took the opportunity left by the demise of Germany- just like America and Britain installed capitalism in the countries they liberated themselves. |
Actually, it's a bit more sinister than that. Given that the resistence to the Nazi-occupation in Europe was led by Communists almost everywhere, it was imperative for the great powers (including the USSR) to insure there was no power vacuume which could lead to a revolution.
Far from being betrayed by Stalin, the Western Allies sold-out Eastern Europe, in exchange for Stalin yanking the leash of the Communists in Allied territory, like Italy, Greece, France, etc. Given the nature of the Stalinist regime, communist revolution was as dangerous to him as it was to the Allies, as a democratic communist state would show the lie that was the USSR,
Furthermore, because the war wrecked Eastern Europe, the Allies wanted to see the Soviets stuck with the rebuilding effort, which would drain the Soviet economy (and it did for fifty years). Only in East Germany, where the Soviets packed up whole factories and shipped them to the USSR did the USSR see any economic benefit to grabbing Eastern Europe.
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Oncle Boris
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Once in a brown moon
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Actually, it's a bit more sinister than that. Given that the resistence to the Nazi-occupation in Europe was led by Communists almost everywhere, it was imperative for the great powers (including the USSR) to insure there was no power vacuume which could lead to a revolution.
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True.
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Far from being betrayed by Stalin, the Western Allies sold-out Eastern Europe, in exchange for Stalin yanking the leash of the Communists in Allied territory, like Italy, Greece, France, etc. Given the nature of the Stalinist regime, communist revolution was as dangerous to him as it was to the Allies, as a democratic communist state would show the lie that was the USSR,
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True, that Stalin didn't betray the Allies: already in 1943, Churchill agreed on zones of influence.
It also may be true that some communists could have been, in fact, a threat to Stalin- but weren't most resistance communists also those who became Stalin's puppets?
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Furthermore, because the war wrecked Eastern Europe, the Allies wanted to see the Soviets stuck with the rebuilding effort, which would drain the Soviet economy (and it did for fifty years). Only in East Germany, where the Soviets packed up whole factories and shipped them to the USSR did the USSR see any economic benefit to grabbing Eastern Europe. |
What, they knew they'd rebuild France and Italy while USSR would fail with their own? 
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Shi Huangdi
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Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:34
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"Idiots. EE fell under Soviet influence, because EE had NEVER been independant. Throughout history, it had been either under Ottoman rule, Prussian, Austrian, Russian, etc."
That isn't true. Czechoslovakia was independent before as the Kingdom of Bohemia, Hungary was it's own independent kingdom, Poland was independent until the 18th century and was at one time a great power, Albania was around, etc. Moreover, all of the states had been independent after Versailles or a little before that in some cases, and then the Soviet Union forced them into their cruel system and made them sattelites. I can't see how you can possibly justify putting them under your yoke just because they were under a different yoke previously.
In addition to Czecholsovakia, what about supporting the NK attack on South Korea? Or the clampdown on Hungary? Or demands made on the Turkish government for a base in the Straits? Or Backing the North Vietnamese against the South? Or any number of pro-Soviet people they backed abroad...
Trying to use historical imperial domination of this area as an excuse to justify the Soviet's action smashes your credibility.
"Given the nature of the Stalinist regime, communist revolution was as dangerous to him as it was to the Allies, as a democratic communist state would show the lie that was the USSR,"
What!? The foreign communists were all Pro-Soviet. What about the Italian Communists saying that in a war with the Soviet Union they would back the USSR?
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29-02-2004 02:28
You know, with an education like that, I'm surprised the West didn't fall. Kudos to you FB. On top of it all as always. 
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