01-03-2004 03:25									#151
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Boris, is it your ultimate goal to piss off every culture and genre in this forum or are you just that much of a jackass?

	01-03-2004 03:27									#152
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc As was Russia.

I would be open to your arguments, if only you had some.

I can agree with you that Russia was a threat, but only in the sense that America and Russia were both imperialist powers, striving to edge the other for the sake of prestige. None of them was any better morally.

It still remains that post-Stalinian Soviet Union was a wuss that didn't want to face America directly.

	01-03-2004 03:29									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle Boris, is it your ultimate goal to piss off every culture and genre in this forum or are you just that much of a jackass?

Well... I don't know. I consider myself of the anarcho-socialist genre, intent on destroying any myth.

Most leftists I meet say I'm right-wing, and most rightists say I'm left-wing. I'm used to it. That's what happens when you try to look at the facts, without bias.

	01-03-2004 03:31									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I would be open to your arguments,

I doubt that given some of your responses to some of the people that actually bothered to take this troll seriously. Next you'll be argueing that Germany and Japan weren't threats to the US either.

quote: None of them was any better morally.

Morality has little or nothing to do with the assessment that the USSR was a threat to the US. I'm only concerned with facts when I make that statement.

	01-03-2004 03:37									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Well, Spain is less rich,[QUOTE] Less rich than who? [QUOTE] more racist, less tolerant, etc.

Thatīs why we have 4 million of immigrants from Latin America, East Europe, and China. Because we are racist and tolerant. I suppose this stupid people are masochists who come to Spain to suffer.

quote: It's probably on the right path today,

Well... at least you recognize that itīd on the right path. And itīs not thanks to commie politics. Like by the way, Russia, whose population has achieved a much more better level of life standards and quality of life in ten years of imperfect capitalism than in 70 years of perfect communism.

quote: but back in the 30s it was Western Europe's lame duck.

The Spanish governments of the firs half of 20th century where not very fortunate one. So you are right. Which does nothing but magnify the effect of the Spanish growth those last years.

quote: This way, I'll learn how great of a man was Franco.

You will also learn how communists killed people just because they believed in God, or how communist tried to hijack a legitimate Spanish government back in 1934. Or how the USSR supplied weapons to one of the sides in the Civil War. Or how legitimate property was stolen. I recommend you to read them.

By the way, many of the politics run by Francoīs regime in the first years where not very different from the ones run by a socialist regime, like the nationalization of the banks and many "strategic" sectors of the Spanish industry. This and the situation after a devastating civil war explains the poor performance of the regime those years, which changed once the regime started to run different politics and to trust in (a bit more) free market.

	01-03-2004 03:37									#156
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I doubt that given some of your responses to some of the people that actually bothered to take this troll seriously. Next you'll be argueing that Germany and Japan weren't threats to the US either.

Don't worry, I won't. If I'm that wrong, why is that you can't even take the time to write a paragraph or two?

quote: Morality has little or nothing to do with the assessment that the USSR was a threat to the US. I'm only concerned with facts when I make that statement.

Well, both America and Russia held each other in respect. None of them really thought about conquering the other, etc. As I said in my 'troll', Russia's foreign policy was not world conquest- and I think the same applies for America.

	01-03-2004 03:43									#157
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA Thatīs why we have 4 million of immigrants from Latin America, East Europe, and China. Because we are racist and tolerant. I suppose this stupid people are masochists who come to Spain to suffer.

Well, racism is everywhere, but from travel experiences it's worse in Spain than in France, for example. Spain social laws are much less progressive than Germany, France, etc.

quote: Well... at least you recognize that itīd on the right path. And itīs not thanks to commie politics. Like by the way, Russia, whose population has achieved a much more better level of life standards and quality of life in ten years of imperfect capitalism than in 70 years of perfect communism.

Yeah, social security has never done anything good in the world.

The Spanish governments of the firs half of 20th century where not very fortunate one. So you are right. Which does nothing but magnify the effect of the Spanish growth those last years.

quote: You will also learn how communists killed people just because they believed in God, or how communist tried to hijack a legitimate Spanish government back in 1934. Or how the USSR supplied weapons to one of the sides in the Civil War. Or how legitimate property was stolen. I recommend you to read them.

Yes, and so did Franco's partisans. Both sides were disgusting.

quote: By the way, many of the politics run by Francoīs regime in the first years where not very different from the ones run by a socialist regime, like the nationalization of the banks and many "strategic" sectors of the Spanish industry. This and the situation after a devastating civil war explains the poor performance of the regime those years, which changed once the regime started to run different politics and to trust in (a bit more) free market.

Some nationalizations have been very successful, it depends on how it's done. So I wouldn't blame nationalization. Soviet growth in the 40s and 50s was huge, despite their planned economics.

	01-03-2004 03:45									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris The Soviet blitzkrieg is a myth.

Sure, and Hitler didnīt kill the jews. That was an invention of Spielberg for his movie.

Ok, If you are about to choose which historical facts are true and which arenīt I wonīt bother to answer you.

	01-03-2004 03:58									#159
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA Sure, and Hitler didnīt kill the jews. That was an invention of Spielberg for his movie. Ok, If you are about to choose which historical facts are true and which arenīt I wonīt bother to answer you.

They had military plans, but they didn't intend to put them at work. I'm sure the US has plans for an hypothetical invasion of Canada, but the question is: do they really want to use them?

	01-03-2004 04:03									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Well, racism is everywhere, but from travel experiences it's worse in Spain than in France, for example.

Would you care to argument your statements? I could say that "from travel experiences" racism itīs worse in Honolulu than in Madagascar. But that means nothing without facts to back up my affirmations.

quote: Spain social laws are much less progressive than Germany, France, etc.

Again, would you care to define "progresssive social laws" and in which way they are "more progressive" in one country than in other?

quote: Yeah, social security has never done anything good in the world.

Thatīs why people who can afford it have private security, because social security itīs the best. Thatīs also why Russian people who have a dangerous disease go to West Europe or USA for treatment. (God, at least they CAN go outside Russia for treatment now, which they could not do during USSR times!)

quote: Yes, and so did Franco's partisans. Both sides were disgusting.

If you are expecting me to make an strong defence of Franco you are wrong. My point is that if I had to choose between two evils, being the Spanish communis one and Franco the other, I would choose Franco, which doesnīt mean that I would be happy with him, but less unhappy than with the other option. Said that, trying to justify what one side did saying that the other also did it is a weak defense. I thought that communism was fair and gave justice, but now itīs as disgusting as Franco. Interesting...

quote: Some nationalizations have been very successful, it depends on how it's done. So I wouldn't blame nationalization. Soviet growth in the 40s and 50s was huge, despite their planned economics.

About that I prefer to wait until I have data to refuse this affirmation. I will ask my Russian sources for the data that proves that USSR didnīt grow anything in 70 years and that shows the positive changes lived by Russia in the last 10 years and come back for it.

	01-03-2004 04:11									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I'm sure the US has plans for an hypothetical invasion of Canada, but the question is: do they really want to use them?

BE CAREFUL CANADIANS, BUSH II WANTS TO CONQUER YOU!!!!

I told you not to watch too much South Park...

	01-03-2004 04:14									#162
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA Would you care to argument your statements? I could say that "from travel experiences" racism itīs worse in Honolulu than in Madagascar. But that means nothing without facts to back up my affirmations.

Well, my gay friend had to flee from Spain, another friend of mine was harassed in a bar because she was Chinese. And you always see Spaniards getting pissed off when they are mistaken for Latinos. So well, it may be a stereotype, but can you claim it is unfounded? There is a huge consensus on this amongst my friends who traveled to Europe.

quote: Again, would you care to define "progresssive social laws" and in which way they are "more progressive" in one country than in other?

Well, social security, drug policy, homosexual and minority rights, etc. Netherlands, Sweden and Canada are largely progressist countries. Spain, America and Korea are not.

quote: Thatīs why people who can afford it have private security, because social security itīs the best. Thatīs also why Russian people who have a dangerous disease go to West Europe or USA for treatment. (God, at least they CAN go outside Russia for treatment now, which they could not do during USSR times!)

Of course when you're rich you can do better with your own money. Social security is intended for the poor. Yeah, with the average wage in Russia being lower than 100$ a week, you expect many of them to get healthcare elsewhere?

quote: If you are expecting me to make an strong defence of Franco you are wrong. My point is that if I had to choose between two evils, being the Spanish communis one and Franco the other, I would choose Franco, which doesnīt mean that I would be happy with him, but less unhappy than with the other option. Said that, trying to justify what one side did saying that the other also did it is a weak defense. I thought that communism was fair and gave justice, but now itīs as disgusting as Franco. Interesting...

I'm not a communist, and I never said it brought righteousness.

quote: About that I prefer to wait until I have data to refuse this affirmation. I will ask my Russian sources for the data that proves that USSR didnīt grow anything in 70 years and that shows the positive changes lived by Russia in the last 10 years and come back for it.

Yeah, sure. Russia was an industrial powerhouse, you know it. Even during WW2, their military production was higher than Britain or Germany, and only surpassed by the US.

Isn't your 'Russian source' the one who thinks Putin is great?

	01-03-2004 04:17									#163
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA BE CAREFUL CANADIANS, BUSH II WANTS TO CONQUER YOU!!!! I told you not to watch too much South Park...

Seriously, during the Cold War, they had plans for all kind of weird things. The Canadian army once simulated a strike against Quebecers separatist partisans.

Any military has plans for plenty of things, just in case.

	01-03-2004 04:39									#164
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quote: I consider myself of the anarcho-socialist genre

That's your problem.

	01-03-2004 06:54									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Okay, so taking Poland, the Baltic states, those were all defensive right? Creating a buffer zone. Poor little Russia couldn't defend itself without a buffer zone...but hey that's okay right because the Soviets were doing it? Anyway, alot of good it did them. Too bad they got their azzes kicked by the Finns.

Right on.

Those Finns were a lot tougher than Russia thought. I read something on the Finnish-Russian conflict which detailed how one Finnish unit tactically alternated attacks and retreats on a Russian unit to get it positioned right over a frozen lake. Then they encircled the unit and kept it on that location until the Spring came and the warmer weather caused the ice to melt enough and the Russian (regiment? i can't remember the size of the Russian unit) drowned in the icy lake. Brillant.

	01-03-2004 08:25									#166
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA BE CAREFUL CANADIANS, BUSH II WANTS TO CONQUER YOU!!!!

If you search the archives you will find a thread not only about U.S. plans to invade Canada, but also Canadian plans to fight a war with the United States. That fact that plans exist in no way means that they are intended to be used. Partially they are intellectual excercises.

They are also simulations run to try and figure out if plans would work in case they were needed, if for instance, Canada was sneak attacked by the USSR, how would the U.S. respond. If the U.S. became fascist, how would Canada defend itself, etc. Are these realitic possibilities? No. But most of history is made up of things that would be considered improbable if it didn't happen.

Of course the USSR had plans to invade Western Europe. NATO also had plans to invade the USSR. You don't wait until war is likely to start making plans for it.

	01-03-2004 08:25									#167
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quote: Like by the way, Russia, whose population has achieved a much more better level of life standards and quality of life in ten years of imperfect capitalism than in 70 years of perfect communism.

Wherever you are getting your numbers, I would find another source. The Russian GDP has been slashed as has production, unemployment has skyrocketed, crime is high (Many Russian companies are run by the mafia), Russia is in a population decline, the Russian standards of living, have fallen DRAMATICALLY since the free market revolution....
Russia was promised enourmous growth under capitalism. All Russia has gotten is poverty!
IIRC, this is why the communists still do so well. Yes, Russia may have (psuedo) freedom now, but if you can't eat then what good is it?

Hmph.

	01-03-2004 08:52									#168
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So, basically, the French brought about the downfall of the Soviet Union. Pretty impressive stuff.

	01-03-2004 09:35									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Vanguard So, basically, the French brought about the downfall of the Soviet Union. Pretty impressive stuff.

Huh? Who are you talking to? Who said that?

	01-03-2004 11:55									#170
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Imran, I'm waiting for you.