27-02-2004 22:21									#1
	CIA sabotaged Soviet Union in 1982 Support Apolyton

See MSNBC article

It always takes 20-25 years to pass before the real stories come out. This article details a covert mission, approved by Reagan, for the CIA to covertly sell technology to the Soviet Union that would malfunction.

One of the more speculator developments was a Soviet gas pipeline explosion due to faulty software. An "information age" battle that was more prevalant in the Cold War.

One of the key motives was Washington's desire to stop Europe from buying Soviet natural gas. I remember the news stories at the time where Reagan was pleading, pressuring, etc Europe to not buy Soviet energy. There was a pipeline technology transfer by an Italian company (IIRC) that the US threatened sanctions over.

	27-02-2004 22:27									#2
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I've heard about this story too. Some years ago....

	27-02-2004 22:38									#3
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Brilliant counter espionage.

	27-02-2004 22:40									#4
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Yes, that is brillant. I know we aren't supposed to talk about Civ3 down in the depths of the Off-Topic forum, but its this kind of realism and functionality that would be appreciated in the game.

	27-02-2004 22:56									#5
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That's pretty wild. Whatever the feeling toward Reagan and the admin at the time...

One might speculate- as the article mentioned- that without this initiative, the geography and events in eastern Europe and Asia might still look much the same as they did in the 80's.

Cool article.

	27-02-2004 22:59									#6
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The US has been doing stuff like this ever since the end of the 2nd World War. I don't know how extensive it was, but the USSR and Eastern Europe suffered some serious problems due to Western terrorism. This in turn fueled Eastern paranoia and made the security state necessary. The East ended up devouring itself trying to defend itself.

	27-02-2004 23:03									#7
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A capitalist will sell you the rope to hang him with? But what if the rope is purposely defective in the first place?

	27-02-2004 23:08									#8
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The US has been doing stuff like this ever since the end of the 2nd World War. I don't know how extensive it was, but the USSR and Eastern Europe suffered some serious problems due to Western terrorism. This in turn fueled Eastern paranoia and made the security state necessary. The East ended up devouring itself trying to defend itself.

I agree with this...

	27-02-2004 23:17									#9
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Good.

We also had the Polish telephoe service on the pay role. in the case of war it would have bbe lights out for communications through poland. Not a devestating blow but certaintly annoying if you are participating in a European war.

	27-02-2004 23:21									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Good. We also had the Polish telephoe service on the pay role. in the case of war it would have bbe lights out for communications through poland. Not a devestating blow but certaintly annoying if you are participating in a European war.

Part of why every Warsaw Pact division was "backed up" by a Soviet division. "Fight or we shoot you in the back."

	27-02-2004 23:23									#11
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Very true.

	27-02-2004 23:23									#12
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I read today that an Arianne rocket carrying a satelitte to explore a comet had to be delayed because the technicians found that some insulation on it's fuel tanks had fallen off.

	27-02-2004 23:25									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc I read today that an Arianne rocket carrying a satelitte to explore a comet had to be delayed because the technicians found that some insulation on it's fuel tanks had fallen off.

Are you implying the US sold the ESA the fule tanks or its insulation?

	27-02-2004 23:26									#14
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quote: Originally posted by pchang Part of why every Warsaw Pact division was "backed up" by a Soviet division. "Fight or we shoot you in the back."

I think the Polish peasantry was pro-communist. So there was a large recruitment base. In the cities it was another matter.

	27-02-2004 23:27									#15
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quote: Originally posted by pchang Are you implying the US sold the ESA the fule tanks or its insulation?

No.

	27-02-2004 23:29									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc No.

Ok. Then how is that fuel tank thing at all related to anything else in this thread? Just wondering where it came from.

	27-02-2004 23:30									#17
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It was just a remark. I thought it so insigificant that it did not deserve its own thread.

	27-02-2004 23:34									#18
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The delivery of sabotaged stuff was only possible because the Soviets were stealing technology they did not fully understand. If they had just relied on home grown stuff, this would have never happened.

	27-02-2004 23:37									#19
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The US has been doing stuff like this ever since the end of the 2nd World War. I don't know how extensive it was, but the USSR and Eastern Europe suffered some serious problems due to Western terrorism. This in turn fueled Eastern paranoia and made the security state necessary. The East ended up devouring itself trying to defend itself.

That's a very logical argument. However, the seeds of a police state in Russia/Soviet Union existed well before WW2. Good point about self-fulfilling actions. The US actions only served to heightened the defense mechanism of the Soviets.

	27-02-2004 23:40									#20
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quote: Originally posted by pchang The delivery of sabotaged stuff was only possible because the Soviets were stealing technology they did not fully understand. If they had just relied on home grown stuff, this would have never happened.

Yes, there are a lot of prohibitions on using foreign built hardware and software for government programs. I had to throw out a perfectly good firewall company because they were Finish owned. There are some good Israeli security software companies that we are not allowed to use either -- despite both countries being a friendly nation to the US.

	27-02-2004 23:43									#21
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If you want to, you can sell more such technologies to Russia. Maybe Putin will collapse.

On second thought....

	27-02-2004 23:47									#22
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quote: a covert mission, approved by Reagan, for the CIA to covertly sell technology to the Soviet Union that would malfunction.

Brilliant!

quote: However, the seeds of a police state in Russia/Soviet Union existed well before WW2.

Indeed. Stalin was going with police state no matter what was going on.

	27-02-2004 23:58									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner That's a very logical argument. However, the seeds of a police state in Russia/Soviet Union existed well before WW2. Good point about self-fulfilling actions. The US actions only served to heightened the defense mechanism of the Soviets.

I limited myself to the actions of the U.S. Clearly Stalin's security aparatus was extreme by any reasonable measure. Perhaps if the U.S. didn't keep poking them, things might have calmed down even more after Kruschev became the head of the USSR.

That said, however, Soviet paranoia begins with the efforts of the West to overthrow them and aid the White armies during the Civil War. Even after the war was over, France kept a White army (led by General Wrangel) supplied and ready to invade just across the border in Romania. This was the reason behind the extremely harsh response to Kronstadt. In addition, ex-pat Russians, Ukrainians, etc. kept slipping back into the USSR and committing what we would call today terrorism.

Stalin, however, had to take what was necessary precautions even further. The army had been built from scratch by Stalin's cheif rival for power, Trotsky. Had Trotsky ever given the word, the Army could have seized power and brought him back from exile to lead the USSR. They even begged him to give the order (as he was the only one who had the personal authority to get the army to mutiny). Meanwhile, the peasantry was chafing under the restrictions on trade with the Soviet state. Then the Nazis started trying to undermine them.

Many of the agents the CIA recruited after the war were originally agents working for the Nazis, old Ukrainian fascists, etc. These were people who had helped round up Jews and others and turned them over to the SS.

	28-02-2004 00:42									#24
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He he, bugs in the stolen software, that better than dye packets in the bank loot.

	28-02-2004 01:17									#25
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The US has been doing stuff like this ever since the end of the 2nd World War. I don't know how extensive it was, but the USSR and Eastern Europe suffered some serious problems due to Western terrorism. This in turn fueled Eastern paranoia and made the security state necessary. The East ended up devouring itself trying to defend itself.

Western terrorism
We fueled eastern paranoia
The East ended up devouring itself trying to defend itself. :ROTFLMAO:

Stop ... Stop... you're killin me

Perhaps you didnt note, didnt understand, or didnt want to understand .

The soviet shopping list that was acquired was for technology that the KBG wanted to steal from us. Casey and the lads just allowed them to steal faulty plans etc which they used.

If you want to point a finger, point it directly where it belongs.

	28-02-2004 01:39									#26
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Western terrorism

What do you call setting fire to an entire bus fleet in East Blerin, blowing up bridges in the USSR, spreading swine fever in Cuba, the Contras, RENAMO, UNITA, etc.?

	28-02-2004 02:02									#27
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i think i saw this at /. last month.

either way,

	28-02-2004 02:08									#28
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Chegiz sure is enamoured of the loooooooooosers, a thread running through much of his discussions here.

	28-02-2004 02:16									#29
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You tryin to say something, Lefty?

	28-02-2004 02:26									#30
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You forgot to mention the exploding TV's