28-02-2004 22:52									#91
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Although I voted No, I'm changing my mind, because I was expecting to see at least 100$ or so at the suggested price, but 10-20$ are more confortable for me. But the thing is that I'll stuck in my new house in Madrid with dial-up for some month, so I don't want anything that could suppose more bandwith to download for me, until I'll install ADSL in my Madrid's house (2-3 months at least).

Some suggestion for the godies

1) Increased upload space.
2) The forwarding @apolyton.net could be great, as was suggested. It could be combined with antivirus scanning or something like that.
3) Priority in the case the server will be in high load.
4) What about a free very cheap goodie to be shipped to the register payer? I'm thinking in a CD with each 6 month with all the scens released for all the games, and things like that. Maybe some caffe cup or a t-shirt or somenthing like that.

	28-02-2004 22:55									#92
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Sava probably not because I'm a cheap bastard... ads are fine if it keeps the site free.

That's the option being discussed. Ads and free or no ads and subscription. Mark has repeatedly said the site will remain free.

	28-02-2004 23:25									#93
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by PLATO That's the option being discussed. Ads and free or no ads and subscription. Mark has repeatedly said the site will remain free.

Yep. Some of these responses are...well, they bring to mind dumb blonde jokes.

All together now, "They'll never take away our freedom!!!"

Monk

	29-02-2004 00:08									#94
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: the tax on beer is bad enough

Stay in for one night and they are able to pay.
Or go do some dishes at a restaurant and they will have money for Poly and it will pay the beer for the rest of the evening.

	29-02-2004 00:20									#95
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: 1) Increased upload space. 2) The forwarding @apolyton.net could be great, as was suggested. It could be combined with antivirus scanning or something like that. 3) Priority in the case the server will be in high load.

I think 1 and 3 are particularly good suggestions (well, I don't need them myself but for other subscribers it would be ).

#2 seems to be popular but has a major downside: you'll probably only get loads and loads of spam on that address. Lord knows we (staff members) are drowning in it already

	29-02-2004 00:20									#96
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

MarkG:

Hmm ... I'm using the MOO3 Light style. I have the banner ads across the top and bottom of the page, but no pop-ups in recent memory.

Gatekeeper

	29-02-2004 00:25									#97
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

MarkG:

The $60 was a reference from another member's post as a *possible* subscription fee. Other ranges tossed around included a $20 to $40 range. Basically, folks are brainstorming, nothing more.

Gatekeeper

	29-02-2004 00:31									#98
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

All righty. It's time for some additional responses to some of the comments and inquiries made in this increasingly viewed thread...

dainbramage20: Tisk, tisk. Re-read what Markos and I have said in this thread. I also recommend using the forum Search function to find past discussions on this topic.

Zopperoni: Ah yes, the idea of email aliases. First, see Markos' note on this above. Additionally: if this does get implemented at some point, note that it they would not be "@apolyton.net" but rather "@apolyton.com". The .net variant is for site administrative and staff assignment only.

Jamski: I will be the billing contact and direct payment recipient in this system. I also manage all accounts payable and receivable for Apolyton; therefore, no monies are to be sent to Markos for the subscription service.

yaroslav: First: $100US as a month fee? Goodness no. At the *most* this would be a high-end cost for a lifetime subscription if we were to implement it. To reiterate, though, no price is yet set in stone even for start-up.

With regards to your suggestions...

Re #1: Increased upload space might be considered but not as an initial offering.
Re #2: Antivirus scanning would not be possible with an email alias account as mail sent to it would never 'rest' on the server providing the alias.
Re #3: While I'm not certain how feasible this would be to implement, I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea in the first place. The subscription service is targetted for extras and non-access as well as non-content related additions/permissions.
Re #4: Way too elaborate for now. If this option were to be revisited, it would not be in the form of a physical shipment to a provided postal address but rather an electronic shipment to a provided email address. Shipping costs would be way too prohibitive otherwise. Yes, this would limit what types of material could be distributed, but the limitation is a sound trade-off to the alternative.

Keep the discussion coming!

-----------
Dan; Apolyton CS

	29-02-2004 00:54									#99
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Why not just leave it like it is?. With the ads when you visit an external link?


If this come true, we the "poor" ones that can't be able to afford 25-30$ will be attacked with a ton of pop-ups?. What will be the pop up system for the "non-suscribers" ?

	29-02-2004 00:57									#100
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I'm with Ixnay on this one. If it were a one-time fee, I'd be all for it. Or even something like, $10-$20/yr, but nothing more than that, really.

	29-02-2004 01:37									#101
	Inflate your Upload Space

Dan-mark, could you please remove those "Admin" badges? They're distracting

quote: If this come true, we the "poor" ones that can't be able to afford 25-30$ will be attacked with a ton of pop-ups?.

As I understand, the system will go as:
-Nonsubscribers have no change.
-Subscribers recieve no ads.

So, AFAIK, the number of popups won't increase for nonsubscribers. But then again I'm only a Shadow Administrator.

	29-02-2004 02:16									#102
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Dan-mark, could you please remove those "Admin" badges? They're distracting

I agree... when did they make them? Didn't notice them before today


Oh, and why didn't you write their names the other way around... Danmark is how danes write Denmark

	29-02-2004 02:21									#103
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

ADG

quote: Maybe because the banks in Denmark for some reason don't have that activation code you need to activate the paypal account... I have asked around, but nobody I know has been able to get that code...

As of 12th February, you have been a customer of Paypal Europe Ltd, which is the Britain based company running the non US operations of PayPal. This means that there has been some small changes. Already prior to that, there was only two ways for Danish residents to add funds to their PayPal accounts - either from a bank account in USA or with a credit card. This was, and still is, very clearly stated on the PayPal website. If you want to have a validated account, you'll need to use a credit card for that. The new European operations will soon hopefully provide new services like bank transactions from European banks. However no news on that yet.

And it shouldn't be impossible to send 25 USD with an unverified account, AFAIK.

Dan

First of all, thanks very much for finally taking this issue seriously and preparing to take action! I'm sure I'll be subscribing myself to this service, when it eventually rolls out.

quote: (2a) Increased avatar size

Great! Looks like one of my previous suggestions has been noted. 120x120 px would be sweet.

As for payment methods, I would be suggesting the following ones:

- PayPal (accepts credit cards, US bank accounts and more to come - some may also have conducted business on e.g. eBay, so they could have funds from such transactions too)
- NoChex (accepts credits cards and British debit cards - the British equivalent for PayPal)
- money orders, cheques, SWIFT cheques (for all those who can't use online payment systems)
- bank transactions (secure and easy way to pay for all those who don't prefer the other methods)

Don't even concider accepting cash! It's very unsecure and it would just cause you trouble.

Providing all these methods would make the service very flexible and convinient for users around the World.

	29-02-2004 02:22									#104
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Although I selected "Yes, If the price is right", I can't say with certainty I'd actually do it, so count me as a "definite maybe"?

I don't like pop-ups, but I don't block them (here). The only one I ever clicked is the "visitor survey" because I think that's a good idea. Otherwise, I just close them after a couple of seconds, to allow them to "count". I especially don't like the pop-ups with misleading messages or blatantly-false window titles. I'm not bothered as much by the ones that have the decency to tell the truth about themselves. imho, advertisers who use pop-ups are far too desperate for attention for me to view them as being worthy of my time. I'm much more likely to click a banner ad (and have done so several times here), simply because it's sitting there quietly winking at me instead of shov(el)ing its in my face.

Last edited by gwillybj on 29-02-2004 at 02:36

	29-02-2004 02:29									#105
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin ADG quote: Maybe because the banks in Denmark for some reason don't have that activation code you need to activate the paypal account... I have asked around, but nobody I know has been able to get that code... As of 12th February, you have been a customer of Paypal Europe Ltd, which is the Britain based company running the non US operations of PayPal. This means that there has been some small changes. Already prior to that, there was only two ways for Danish residents to add funds to their PayPal accounts - either from a bank account in USA or with a credit card. This was, and still is, very clearly stated on the PayPal website. If you want to have a validated account, you'll need to use a credit card for that. The new European operations will soon hopefully provide new services like bank transactions from European banks. However no news on that yet.

Well... I haven't followed up with the news about this. But the problem I (and all danes I've heard of) have is when you register a CC they withdraw $1.95, and on the account-papers there should be 4 numbers attached to that withdraw... the problem is: Those numbers are non-existsant...
But maybe their new Europe part can help this... I hope so...

quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin And it shouldn't be impossible to send 25 USD with an unverified account, AFAIK.

In that case I wouldn't mind putting those $25 I have into Apolyton instead...

	29-02-2004 02:42									#106
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by DanQ yaroslav: First: $100US as a month fee? Goodness no. At the *most* this would be a high-end cost for a lifetime subscription if we were to implement it. To reiterate, though, no price is yet set in stone even for start-up. With regards to your suggestions... Re #1: Increased upload space might be considered but not as an initial offering. Re #2: Antivirus scanning would not be possible with an email alias account as mail sent to it would never 'rest' on the server providing the alias. Re #3: While I'm not certain how feasible this would be to implement, I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea in the first place. The subscription service is targetted for extras and non-access as well as non-content related additions/permissions. Re #4: Way too elaborate for now. If this option were to be revisited, it would not be in the form of a physical shipment to a provided postal address but rather an electronic shipment to a provided email address. Shipping costs would be way too prohibitive otherwise. Yes, this would limit what types of material could be distributed, but the limitation is a sound trade-off to the alternative. Keep the discussion coming! ----------- Dan; Apolyton CS

Dear Dan,

100$ was my though-to-be per-year fee, not per month. 100$ per month would add to 1200$ per year, a thing that only Lefty can paid

I'm in a hurry because I'm in my parent's house (in my house I've not Internet yet), but I dare to add a few points about your replies, without trying to disturb you.

#1 - I have no too much use for it, but many people post JPEGs with PBEMs and deleting them because there is no enough space make some old PBEMs thread to look ugly... BTW, what about a system to make folder in your upload space, to organize your files?

#2 - The IEEE Computer society, an important engineering association, offered me an alias and antivirus-scanning with my anual fee... so maybe there is a way to offer the antivirus-scanning thing... or maybe I remember it bad.

#3 - Ok. In fact, I like your idea of keeping all the contents free and I've only words of thanks for that.

#4 - What is the cost of an internal shipment of a CD? 1€ or so?

	29-02-2004 02:48									#107
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

This seems like a good idea, if the price roughly matches a magazine subscription. Something you can justify to your wife as about the same as a Newsweek subscription.

As Dr. Spike says, however, this is more of a donation mechanism than a fee for service. For me, I don't need any special added features, but I guess that an Apolyton-supporter badge or text next to my name would seem appropriate and appreciated. This would be like a trinket or a party favor for a $30 annual donation to the local public television station, as many Americans are accustomed to doing. No ads would be good, although I do block any pop-ups through my browser anyway.

If you want to give more than a party favor, I have seen other sites that have integrated a classifieds forum for people who want to buy/sell related stuff. They integrated this service into paypal/v-bulletin and its seemed to be automated.

Last edited by DanS on 29-02-2004 at 03:03

	29-02-2004 04:05									#108
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by DanQ Zopperoni: Ah yes, the idea of email aliases. First, see Markos' note on this above. Additionally: if this does get implemented at some point, note that it they would not be "@apolyton.net" but rather "@apolyton.com". The .net variant is for site administrative and staff assignment only.

Fair enough.

As a response to Markos: perhaps Dan and you could empower a team of members to (help you) process the making of these email forwards.

quote: Originally posted by Locutus #2 seems to be popular but has a major downside: you'll probably only get loads and loads of spam on that address. Lord knows we (staff members) are drowning in it already

I have the luxury of a provider that scans my inbox for both spam and viruses, plus my email client has a reliable spam filter, so I wouldn't be too bothered by it.
It also remains an option, so if one doesn't want it, then it wouldn't pose a problem.
And if becomes a problem, then it becomes the problem of the member and not Apolyton, IMO.

	29-02-2004 05:30									#109
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Let's see.....

Pay for the right to browse Apolyton sans advertising....Are we talking about pop-ups here? Are we talking about the re-driects when downloading and attachment or files made available by Apolyton? Or is it all advertising period?

I already employ a pop-up blocker that works very well. I wouldn't pay more for someting I can already bypass myself.

As for the 're-directs', it's not often I hjave to download files or attachments, and it's not to bad to click the link of the re-direct page instead of waiting 15 seconds.

Now, if you are talking about removing all advertising for a paid subscription; it would depend on the price. I wouldn't pay more than a $1 a month for that.

Let's talk about the "goodies."

I would pay a subscription fee for an increase in PM space and an increase in upload space. I'm not sure I like the idea of people paying for larger, thus more annoying avatars. Not that everyone's avatar is annoying, but some are. I actually really like some of them.

How much would I be willing to pay for more space for PM's and uploads? How about a $1 a month for 5 times the allowed space now for PM's and a $1 month for every time Apolyton doubles your upload space; limited to doing so 3 or 4 times.

1 x 2 = 2 times the normal alloted space for $1 a month.
2 x 2 = 4 times the normal alloted space for $2 a month.
4 x 2 = 8 times the normal alloted space for $3 a month.
8 x 2 =16 times the normal alloted space for $4 a month.

	29-02-2004 06:15									#110
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by BigFree I already employ a pop-up blocker that works very well. I wouldn't pay more for someting I can already bypass myself.

This would be well and good if Mark had not declared this against the rules of the site.

	29-02-2004 08:54									#111
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by DanS For me, I don't need any special added features, but I guess that an Apolyton-supporter badge or text next to my name would seem appropriate and appreciated.

That's a good idea. Maybe even several different titles depending on the donation. IEEE has that too.

	29-02-2004 09:05									#112
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That's a good idea. Maybe even several different titles depending on the donation. IEEE has that too.

Are you suggesting different levels of membership? How would the levels of service differ to each? If you are talking about straight donations, then Dan has said that these will not be accepted. He has said that it must be fee for service.

	29-02-2004 09:41									#113
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by PLATO This would be well and good if Mark had not declared this against the rules of the site.

I have never seen that. Not to say it isn't true, but I think that would be ridiculous. How would you even go about implementing it? It's not like a "pop-up blocker blocker" has been made.

	29-02-2004 09:48									#114
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by BigFree I have never seen that. Not to say it isn't true, but I think that would be ridiculous. How would you even go about implementing it? It's not like a "pop-up blocker blocker" has been made.

Straight from the author:


http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...325#post2696325

	29-02-2004 09:56									#115
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Dan-mark, could you please remove those "Admin" badges? They're distracting As I understand, the system will go as: -Nonsubscribers have no change. -Subscribers recieve no ads. So, AFAIK, the number of popups won't increase for nonsubscribers. But then again I'm only a Shadow Administrator.

Thanks, let's see what the gods say about it.

But, well, I use the Google bar, but this is one of the few sites that I allow pop-up...

And the only one I have got by far is the "smilie central" one, but in rarely occations.

The another "pop up" i got is the "you got a PM"

	29-02-2004 10:06									#116
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by PLATO Straight from the author: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...325#post2696325

ROTFLMAO!!!

I did say that it is possible it was said, only that I did not see it.

But....

Like everyone is supposed to magically know to go and find and then read that thread and then that particular post in that thread! PLEASE!

If it's a "Rule", then an announcement should be made about it if they expect people to adhere to it. I've never know Apolyton to implement a rule that was only tucked into one thread/post that was not meant for an announcement like that. The thread looks to have been started due to malfunctioning pop-ups at that!

Like I said before as well; How would this be enforced?

	29-02-2004 10:35									#117
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

BigFree, I don't think that Mark believes that it will come to a situation where he will need to implement a denial of service type program. In reading the entire thread, Mark makes the point that it is an ethical decision that he is counting on all to make. He further states that using the ad blockers is harming Apolyton. You are an Emperor and have obviously spent a lot of time here. Did you think that the internet fairy paid the bills? No, you just assumed that someone else would, right? Or maybe you never thought of it at all.

The points are that 1.)this site costs money to run, 2.) none of us like pop-ups, and 3.) blocking pop-ups hurts the site.

Are you so financially destitute that you couldn't contribute $20-30 per year? Or do you just feel like it is someone else's responsibility to pay the bills and you should just take advantage of this service for free?

	29-02-2004 11:16									#118
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Well, I might pay. Then, of course, I know I won't, mainly because I'm a cheap #&%##@%. I like my stuff nice and very cheap. I'll stick to my pop-up blocker, thanks.

Basically, I wouldn't pay just to get rid of ads. The more the incentives, the better, and the more likely I might be partly encourged to think about possibly subscribing.

Also, just to pry all the money you can out of these [strike]suckers[/strike] posters, I'd offer the possibility of a donation, one that wouldn't garner any bonuses.

	29-02-2004 11:26									#119
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

This feature basically is a donation. I mean, who doesn't have access to a popup blocker?

	29-02-2004 11:52									#120
	Put an end to popups!

It really depends what those "other services" are. If it's just ad free browsing, well, I can already do that with a pop up blocker.

If the total cost was something like $12 per year then it might be worth it though I'm sure MarkG already makes more then that per person off of the ads. Like I said if the "other stuff" was compelling then I might pay slightly more but not to much.