01-03-2004 05:02									#1
	The Haitian Solution Got spare money?

The question.

What would be the best way to get Haiti on track to economic and political stability that will minimize loss of life and increase the quality of living.

I think that a Communist/Socialist type government along the lines of Cuba should be considered. This government could be a transitional one. Looking at U.S. history, It's clear that voter fraud is a problem in developing democracies. Think Boss Tweed. Haiti needs a system with a strong central government that is dedicated to improving the common person's life.

Does anyone have a better solution?

	01-03-2004 05:28									#2
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You won't believe this, but even a corrupt "democracy" and/or a dictatorship is usually in long term better than communism.

I'm not happy to say that (I still have my Che Guevara shirt...). But history teaches us it is true in most cases that happened so far.

	01-03-2004 05:32									#3
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A socialist/communist government like that in Cuba? Are you out of your mind? I think there should be a right-wing military junta should be set up that will reconstruct infrastructure to prepare for elections.

	01-03-2004 05:33									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo A socialist/communist government like that in Cuba? Are you out of your mind? I think there should be a right-wing military junta should be set up that will reconstruct infrastructure to prepare for elections.

Yeah, because things are so bad in Cuba.

	01-03-2004 05:33									#5
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That is taking it a bit too far.

	01-03-2004 06:06									#6
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar Yeah, because things are so bad in Cuba.

Yes actually they are. That is why so many people are fleeing Castro and his crazed ****ed up dictatorship. Whenever Cuba opens its immigration, you have like 100,000 at a time leaving to the US.

	01-03-2004 06:12									#7
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Comparing Cuba to the U.S. is not really fair. Let's compare Cuba to another Carribean country. Let's see, howabout Haiti.

Would you rather live in Haiti or Cuba?
Give me Cuba right about now.

	01-03-2004 06:14									#8
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Letter
Life in Cuba

Wednesday July 23, 2003
The Guardian

It has to be remembered (Dissidents feel full force of Castro's wrath, July 21) that the 70 convicted Cuban citizens were in the pay of a foreign power bent on destroying Cuban constitutional order. We have seen how the US deals with people accused of "terrorist" action. Those who talk about human rights should remember that the most pressing of all human rights is the right to life itself. In 1960, just after Fidel Castro took power, 37.3 babies in every 1,000 live births died in Cuba. Today, that figure is down to 6.5 per 1,000, comparable with developed nations.
Martin Arundell
Brighton

	01-03-2004 06:50									#9
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quote: A socialist/communist government like that in Cuba? Are you out of your mind? I think there should be a right-wing military junta should be set up that will reconstruct infrastructure to prepare for elections.

What's so wrong with socialism and communism?

	01-03-2004 07:04									#10
	Re: The Haitian Solution Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus I think that a Communist/Socialist type government along the lines of Cuba should be considered. This government could be a transitional one. Looking at U.S. history, It's clear that voter fraud is a problem in developing democracies. Think Boss Tweed. Haiti needs a system with a strong central government that is dedicated to improving the common person's life.

Communism/socialism is expensive business and a luxury of rich, industrious states. Haiti has neither money nor industry. Where will the money come from to fund the huge bureacracy that communism/socialism requires? Cuba was one of the richest countries in the Caribbean at the time of revolution while Haiti is currently one of the poorest nations in the world.

And sorry, no lending agency is going to loan money to a communist style government for development, especially when there isn't any reasonable expectation they'll ever get it back with Haiti's record...

	01-03-2004 07:06									#11
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A UN mandate with international support in the way of troops and police to keep the peace while infrastructure is set up/repaired and the foundations of an economy and political institutions are laid.

The community of French speaking and Caribbean nations should be able to handle most of the manpower needed for maintaining order and creating/training a professional police force, once order is restored and militias are disarmed.

The UN mandate would need to last quite a while though. Perhaps 20 or more years.

	01-03-2004 07:15									#12
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I think we should let the government of Haiti decide its own future. Our role in Haiti would be to facilitate new elections.

	01-03-2004 07:21									#13
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I don't think communism or socialism is a luxury of rich countries. In fact, If people are well off they tend to be happy with their governments. No need for revolution. Haiti is a country that is not at the point where Democracy will work.
Step 1.
add water and contents into bowl. Solidify the people under a cause. Cause could be modernization, industrialization, education, or self sufficiency.
Step 2.
Stir. locate sources of income. Tourist industry etc. and begin promoting.
Step 3
Heat for 10 to 30 years. when the level of education and industrialization have increased the standard of living for the average citizen it would be time to think about transitioning to a new form of government.
Step 4
Serve hot. The U.S. was formed as a democratic country in the 1700's but it really was not. We had fraudulent elections at least to the time of Joe Kennedy if not beyond. We had slave and child labor. Some of these things hurt us. Others like child labor actually assisted in the rapid industrialization of our country. Cuba gets foreign investments so why can't Haiti. It can. For one thing it has beach front property and a labor pool. The country could be turned into a vacation spot ofr the rich with foreign investment in rebuilding.
Organizing Haiti under a strong central government with the goal of modernizing the country is not such a bad idea. In fact, it's the only idea being presented because no one else has given suggestions.

	01-03-2004 07:24									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I think we should let the government of Haiti decide its own future. Our role in Haiti would be to facilitate new elections.

I don't think it is possible to have a legitimate government in Haiti at the moment. All that elections will do will be to set up the next guy for failure because the economy is not there, and the institutions are not there to have a country capable of responsible self rule.

	01-03-2004 07:27									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I think we should let the government of Haiti decide its own future. Our role in Haiti would be to facilitate new elections.

I'm not talking about the U.S. role. I'm talking about what the solution to Haiti's problems are. The governments of Haiti have proved to be incapable of setting up a government that is not corrupt and strong enough to keep the peace. What can be done to acheive this goal.

Some have proposed leaving the country to a civil war. When the winner emerges this would be the recognized government. Ned supports Gunboat Diplomacy.

	01-03-2004 07:34									#16
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usually a right wing military junta is a bad thing

. . .

but not for the fez meister!!!!!1

	01-03-2004 07:51									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy What's so wrong with socialism and communism?

It is mostly a screwed up system that screws everybody.

	01-03-2004 07:56									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus Organizing Haiti under a strong central government with the goal of modernizing the country is not such a bad idea. In fact, it's the only idea being presented because no one else has given suggestions.

Wrong. Every country that has gone down the road with a strong central government (communism/socialism) has always screwed up and collapsed with a lot of corruption.

"It has to be remembered (Dissidents feel full force of Castro's wrath, July 21) that the 70 convicted Cuban citizens were in the pay of a foreign power bent on destroying Cuban constitutional order."



Who wrote this bullshit? There is nothing constitutional about Fidel Castro's murdering dictatorship. He wasn't elected.

The Guardian is truly a B.S newspaper.

	01-03-2004 08:05									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus I don't think communism or socialism is a luxury of rich countries. In fact, If people are well off they tend to be happy with their governments. No need for revolution. Haiti is a country that is not at the point where Democracy will work. Step 1. add water and contents into bowl. Solidify the people under a cause. Cause could be modernization, industrialization, education, or self sufficiency. Step 2. Stir. locate sources of income. Tourist industry etc. and begin promoting. Step 3 Heat for 10 to 30 years. when the level of education and industrialization have increased the standard of living for the average citizen it would be time to think about transitioning to a new form of government. Step 4 Serve hot. The U.S. was formed as a democratic country in the 1700's but it really was not. We had fraudulent elections at least to the time of Joe Kennedy if not beyond. We had slave and child labor. Some of these things hurt us. Others like child labor actually assisted in the rapid industrialization of our country. Cuba gets foreign investments so why can't Haiti. It can. For one thing it has beach front property and a labor pool. The country could be turned into a vacation spot ofr the rich with foreign investment in rebuilding. Organizing Haiti under a strong central government with the goal of modernizing the country is not such a bad idea. In fact, it's the only idea being presented because no one else has given suggestions.

Step one is to solidify people under a single cause, which I think you'll agree is not as easy as you make out. Aside from this though, these people have no precedent for honest government and prosperity, it will be very difficult for people to all of a sudden shift gears and become highly industrious, productive citizens. Of course some can, but I don't think as a whole most people in Haiti, today, are prepared to.

And why would foreign investors want to invest in Haiti,?Short of an institution or large stable foreign government taking control of the country (ala Iraq), which is not desired by anyone as of now, I can't see this happening.

	01-03-2004 08:13									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Wrong. Every country that has gone down the road with a strong central government (communism/socialism) has always screwed up and collapsed with a lot of corruption.

Its true.

Haiti's only option now is to follow every UN/US recomendation and wait for the loans and grants to flow in. Combine this with a responsible and non-corrupt Haitian government with some kind of a sustainable plan for recovery and development and Haiti should be on the road to recovery. Of course they will only get money if that plan has to do with free market democracy. Maybe this isn't entirely fair, but thats how the world works. If the new Haitian government is defiant and radical, its just going to be cut off from the world and from development capital.

So I would say US style development is Haiti's best and only option at this point in time, for better or for worse.

	01-03-2004 08:17									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus I'm not talking about the U.S. role. I'm talking about what the solution to Haiti's problems are. The governments of Haiti have proved to be incapable of setting up a government that is not corrupt and strong enough to keep the peace. What can be done to acheive this goal. Some have proposed leaving the country to a civil war. When the winner emerges this would be the recognized government. Ned supports Gunboat Diplomacy.

Pax, I support Gunboat diplomacy when I say it is up for the people of Haiti to decide their own future?

You have a very strange idea about Gunboat diplomacy.

	01-03-2004 08:34									#22
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1. It's not true. Communist China, Vietnam, and Cuba have nto collapsed. In fact, I believe that China and Vietnam are better off now than when the Great democratic countries forced opium on them. Cuba is better off than previous governments. And they have not fallen. One of the factors that probably led to the downfall of the European countries is probably the way in which they became communist. Basically, there proximity to the USSR. On the other hand Communism in China, Vietnam, and Cuba came from popular movements in change from the way the corrupt governments of the day were doing is business.

2. I say gunboat diplomacy what I mean is that the people with the most guns will win the elections as things stand today.

3. A new haitian government need not be defiant to the world.

4. It won't be easy to turn Haiti around. That's where the need for a strong central government comes in.

5. From what I've read and seen, following UN/US recommendations don't lead to a self sufficient state. Name a UN or US success story in the 3rd world. By my reckoning Cuba is a successful work in progress. Cuba does not take dictations from any outside powers. Healthcare and education levels are high. Stability is high.

	01-03-2004 08:43									#23
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Why would we possibly think that the dictatorial regime you suggest would work better than any of the others Haiti has tried?

	01-03-2004 08:43									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo I think there should be a right-wing military junta should be set up that will reconstruct infrastructure to prepare for elections.

Yeah, like right-wing military juntas have been known to pave the way for fair and free elections and just peacefully step aside.



Would you like to buy a bridge, Fez?

	01-03-2004 08:45									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus 1. It's not true. Communist China, Vietnam, and Cuba have nto collapsed.

China and to a lesser extent Vietnam are capitalist countries with a government that calls itself communist. Especially China.

quote: In fact, I believe that China and Vietnam are better off now than when the Great democratic countries forced opium on them.

Those countries that did that were imperial governments, not democratic. They were monarchies.

quote: Cuba is better off than previous governments.

Not really. GDP per capita income has actually fallen since 1958.

quote: Cuba came from popular movements in change from the way the corrupt governments of the day were doing is business.

They went from one corrupt government to another. Castro's government is very corrupt and has been known to take any kind of bribe.

quote: 3. A new haitian government need not be defiant to the world.

A communst one like Cuba would be.

quote: 4. It won't be easy to turn Haiti around. That's where the need for a strong central government comes in.

A strong central government? No. That is not is what is needed. Infrastructure needs to be built. It would be better if this was built by private companies for quality reasons.

quote: By my reckoning Cuba is a successful work in progress. Cuba does not take dictations from any outside powers. Healthcare and education levels are high. Stability is high.

That's crap. Healthcare and education levels are high? What good is that when the economy is virtually nonexistent and almost totally black market? Cuba is broke and a dictatorship. A successful work in progress? Have you been drinking?

	01-03-2004 08:52									#26
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Communist Cuba is not defiant to the world. Just the U.S.. That's were the problem were the problem with the economy comes in. Also a communist or socialist government does not necessrily mean that the free markets go away. I advocate a strong central government to rebuild the country. Like FDR's new deal. The fact that the U.S. closed it's markets to Cuba has a direct effect on GDP. The fact that even though the U.S. is engaged in econmic warfare with Cuba and Cuba has not collapsed would be called a success.

	01-03-2004 08:55									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus Communist Cuba is not defiant to the world. Just the U.S..

Heh. Right. You should see some of the things Castro says about European leaders.

quote: Also a communist or socialist government does not necessrily mean that the free markets go away.

Yes it does.

quote: I advocate a strong central government to rebuild the country. Like FDR's new deal.

That's not going to help. You want a country with a strong central government? Argentina. They borrowed billions upon billions to build infrastructure (which was all quite poor when completed) and could never pay it back. Your idea of a strong central government is not a solution and in fact will backfire. I think a more federal system, with a weaker central government that responds to the budget and security is needed.

quote: The fact that the U.S. closed it's markets to Cuba has a direct effect on GDP. The fact that even though the U.S. is engaged in econmic warfare with Cuba and Cuba has not collapsed would be called a success.

Cuba is not a success, with or without the embargo. Not a chance in hell.

	01-03-2004 08:57									#28
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Socialism would not be a bad idea at all for Haiti to consider, but the USA would never allow it to happen.

	01-03-2004 09:00									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Cuba is not a success, with or without the embargo. Not a chance in hell.

Then why not prove it and end the embargo? If Cuba would fail regardless, this would be the ultimate justification of the USA's position. Lift the embargo, let Cuba fail on its own, and then you can point at Castro and say, "see?!" Right now, if you're correct, then the embargo is only giving Castro ammunition that keeps him in power, because he can just blame all of Cuba's woes on the US.

That also means the embargo is unethical, as it's only demonstrable purpose is null and void, according to you.

	01-03-2004 09:03									#30
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Socialism would not be a bad idea at all for Haiti to consider, but the USA would never allow it to happen.

Actually it would be very bad.

And the embargo should stay until Castro stops executing the opposition.