13-03-2004 01:20									#31
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I still endorse attack. Those ships are to be used, and the only Hive ships in the area are that laser foil and the cutter. The cutter is no match for base defenses in Atlantis. Our ships are faster, thus this means that even if we only build missile foils, they have the same reach as Hive cruisers.

Also, most likely all Hive airunits in reach are probably busy taking the base defenses of Conshelf 57, thus unless they want to sacrifice their airfleet, they can't counterattack our cruisers next turn.

Btw, Pact with Roze now?

	13-03-2004 02:45									#32
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quote: Originally sended by HongHu Dear Function Maniac, I was notified that the colony pod your captured is determined to be affected by an unknown planet virus that may be deadly and highly contagious. The Hive coastal guard had to take it out because it posed great potential threat to the Hive's security. Comrade HongHu

Well, I like to use this as the same reason for counterattacking their ships in the area. We can always say we detected viral residue on their ships, and since they were sailing back to Hive, they had to be eliminated.

Or else, I do the attack, and you guys blame it later on me and I resign as Military Affairs Function as punishment for being a rogue commander

I certainly do not agree with any move that gets Hive away with this. It was a civilian unit, we had no plans whatsoever to found a base there, so Hive must be punished for this atrocity.

	13-03-2004 15:57									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac All that added together means we have about zero chance to kill that PEACE schooner, even if we attack with 2 impact cruisers.

It depends. I did some testing. If that schooner and transport went full speed to Conshelf 57, this means that they are not on the same tile. Also, the cutter can in that case not cover any of the PEACE ships. The Hive laser foil was NE of the PEACE fleet to start with, then it can only cover the transport, which is not a unit which PEACE can conquer Conshelf 57. Anyway, this means that with the above explanation that that schooner is not covered with a Hive ships. If it is covered with a needlejet, then the schooner can be destroyed by long range artillery, and the needlejet wouldn't get a scratch.

Btw, something I thought of: we have infiltration with the Angels now, so this means we can check the base screens from their northern bases on that straits if Hive and/or PEACE units are visible.

If no PEACE units are spotted, then we know for sure that they hide under the Hive units.

Anyway, this means that perhaps only one cruiser must be sacrified to eliminate the schooner. Use Angel infiltration info, send a cruiser in the straits to check by going near them, and if the schooner is found, fire at will.

A second option, leave the schooner unscatched, transmit a message to PEACE that despite our war with Hive ATM we still live up to our preliminary agreement, but that we would appreciate if no Hive unit at all enters Conshelf 57 when they occupy that base. Refusal of this request will cause the destruction of Crossbone Way off course.
And next to that message, we take out all Hive units we can find around that Island, and send a regret message in the same style (contaminiation) to Hive with perhaps a pré-accepted Truce proposal and the message that it is up to them now to send a Treaty proposal in return to accept the end of hostilities.

	13-03-2004 19:46									#34
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We shouldnt sacrafice ANY units to pointlessly attack non military units of PEACE. If we end up in full scale war with the Hive we will need to ignore Peace as we simply dont have the resorces to waste on them.

And remember one of the Cruisers needs to be ReHomed to Atlantis.

	13-03-2004 20:28									#35
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GeoModder, using Data Angel infiltration is a good idea.
However it won't tell us anything if the schooner has moved to (29.45), (29.43) or (30.42). Therefore my opinion is:
If the schooner is within an Angel base radius on a square alone without any Hive unit, it's worth sacrifying one cruiser to eliminate the schooner and thereby PEACE.
However if we don't spot the schooner, it isn't worth IMO spending any cruiser on a hunt that isn't sure of success.
How does that sound as a compromise between Impaler and you?

	13-03-2004 23:40									#36
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Think, Maniac. Hive turn comes after PEACE turn, off course we won't see a PEACE unit if a Hive unit is over it.

What we need to do is check the Angel base screens, look for Hive units, and send a cruiser to it to double check if PEACE units are under it. As long as the cruiser has a movement or two left when discovering the schooner with a Hive ship above, it can return out of sight with coverage of the other cruisers in case of attack later. But if we find the schooner with a plane hanging over it, we can attack the schooner without damaging the plane then, since our cruisers don't have SAM ability yet. This means in game terms that units which cannot be attacked, be ignored.

Having observed Hive tactics sofar (last turn ) they prefer to cover a ship with a jet. And as explained before, I expect as well that they're going full speed west to be as far from us as possible. So I simply expect to see a Hive unit on one of the locations you posted. My proposal is to take that risk. It gains us a lot, and a better cruiser can be build now as replacement.

Impaler, I'm not proposing to attack the PEACE transport foil, that unit is useless ATM.

But before I forget, to make sure that the schooner hasn't run north, our Calico cruiser should go forward 4-5 turns as well, and then return towards Atlantis to stay out of the Hive aircoverage.

Another idea. Impaler suggested to probe Angels to gain some ec's. Probably Roze will declare vendetta when we do that. Well, since we outtech the Angels, and we take an Angel base, we gain their mapinfo. Perhaps Roze has a map of Hive already...
But I like to do the following manoeuver with this:
- take an Angel base (Coder's Pit, 1 defender) with the Mammoth Task Force. 1 marine attack for the defender, 1 garrison attack to take the base.
- Unload the remaining marine.
- Move the transport with the used garrison and marine out of Coder's Pit.
- Move the remaining marine to that base south of Coder's Pit. 9 to 10 Roze will contact us to give back Coder's Pit.
- We accept truce for that base, our units in Angel Territory return automatically to a base of us.

Our gain is ec's from the probe, the conquest AND the Angel world map, and I would be surprised if we lose any unit in this.

Edit:

quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] And remember one of the Cruisers needs to be ReHomed to Atlantis.

Well, let's use the MBV cruiser then to run after that schooner, next turn it will be destroyed anyway by Hive.

I take it, from the postings so far, that quite a few members still want PEACE out. But for MAF planmaking, how far does CPU wants to go in letting Hive pay for their assault?
I suppose a poll is in order (again).

	14-03-2004 02:03									#37
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Think, Maniac. Hive turn comes after PEACE turn, off course we won't see a PEACE unit if a Hive unit is over it.

I know that. If a Hive unit is over the PEACE schooner, we'd have to sacrifice two cruisers to kill the schooner. That wouldn't be worth it IMO. So if we don't see a PEACE unit alone on a square, we shouldn't try to go and sink it IMO.

quote: Another idea. Impaler suggested to probe Angels to gain some ec's.

I just did a test what the odds are that a hardened probe skimship would survive stealing credits from the Angels. In all ten tests the probe was captured. Could someone please check these results and see what they get? If the probe skimship doesn't survive though, is it worth it??

quote: 9 to 10 Roze will contact us to give back Coder's Pit.

Why do you think that? She could also ask for a tech. Also the Angels have a bigger military than us, and Googlie has edited the "faction diplomacy" settings to make the Angels more agressive towards the CyCon, so IMO there's a large chance that once we are in a war with Roze, it'll be for the rest of the game.


Edit: Btw, is it ok to attack the PEACE crawler near MBV with the missile interceptor?

	14-03-2004 02:53									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac I know that. If a Hive unit is over the PEACE schooner, we'd have to sacrifice two cruisers to kill the schooner. That wouldn't be worth it IMO. So if we don't see a PEACE unit alone on a square, we shouldn't try to go and sink it IMO.

It depends, Maniac. If a Angel base screen shows Hive ship(s) in the straits, still a cruiser can check if under the unit(s) a schooner is hidden. If it is a hive ship above it, then we can't do anything without risking 2 cruisers, but if it is an air unit, we can sink the schooner. With no target, the cruiser will still have 2-3 movements to return to safer waters. I think I found the aircoverage frontier of the Hive in that strait. What I'm asking here is the sacrifice of one cruiser (the MBV one). It can be replaced easily as well since the CCS Love Boat is about repaired.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac I just did a test what the odds are that a hardened probe skimship would survive stealing credits from the Angels.

Tested on a simulator or the real turn? The factors can differ a lot between the real thing and a mere simulation.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Why do you think that? She could also ask for a tech. Also the Angels have a bigger military than us, and Googlie has edited the "faction diplomacy" settings to make the Angels more agressive towards the CyCon, so IMO there's a large chance that once we are in a war with Roze, it'll be for the rest of the game.

Just because of that agressiviness, a base has for an AI a lot greater value then a tech. What would Coder's Pit be worth for a mindcontrol? 500 ec? More? A tech costs are nothing compared to that amount of energy. And because of that military, I would bail out as well again.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Edit: Btw, is it ok to attack the PEACE crawler near MBV with the missile interceptor?

PUT is at present not at war with PEACE, but I'm ok for it. Is a majority of the members agreed with destruction of PEACE then? Drogue not, Obstructor is, you are, I have to decide yet, but I'm inclined to do so. I suggest moving that interceptor as last unit. Btw, the needlejet in Gardens Point still goes west, I suppose? Normally it moves just north of the base area of Crossbone Way, thus it's possible it spots unit(s) as well...

	14-03-2004 07:09									#39
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Tested on a simulator or the real turn? The factors can differ a lot between the real thing and a mere simulation.

A simulation. So who knows it could be possible that in a different simulation the probe would survive 10/10.

quote: PUT is at present not at war with PEACE, but I'm ok for it

Ah yes true too. In that case I'd change my opinion completely and request that the CyCon impact interceptor destroys the crawler instead. That way PUT reputation remains unscratched.

	14-03-2004 13:03									#40
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So you make occasionaly diplomatic mistakes? Ok, the CC impact needlejet takes out that crawler if it comes in reach, and the PUT needlejet going to Calico only scouts. Try to keep that unit out of sight of possible discovered PEACE units, will you?

Then I say send that PUT interceptor to Pamplona or Atlantis (takes a few turns, I know), and let it NOT land in a base in it's midflight, matter of confusing all who watches.

	14-03-2004 21:10									#41
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Why Destroy it when we can Mind Control it.

Take the New Impaler Class Transport in Athena and the Boy Scout their and move to Triplex and Pick up the 2 Probe Teams and a Probe Defence. Then the folowing turn sail over next to the Crawler, unload a Probe and take the Crawler (I think it will be around 80 Credits). This will give MBV +4 minerals (making it a much better location for military production ) and it will cut by 2/3 the mineral output of CrossBone.

The Transport can then continue westward towards the Hive or Northward towards the Drones (it will take aroudn 5 turns to reach Drones but infiltrating them is a very high priority IMHO). If we go north be shure to pick up the 2 Probe Teams that have been produced in Cycon territory by moving them north of Pi Square and jumping on the Transport as it sails by, then we have 3 Probes witchwitch to infiltrate and the Boy Scout in the Transport can be upgraded to Impact Marines for 60 Credits if we need some thing to "kick the door in" when we reach the Drones.

	17-03-2004 19:11									#42
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Ok, some statements:

I fully agree about a plan to infiltrate the drones.
If not as Impaler suggests (if Hive continues hostilities, I'm thinking of letting them take a base, and infiltrate then), then the probe foil under construction ATM (sorry, forgot the base name, Athena?) can infiltrate Believers and then continue towards Drone territory as well.

Further more I think it's time to increase efforts for a military build up ASAP. We all know these are precarious times, and how stretched our military is. Simply not enough hardware IMO.

	17-03-2004 19:51									#43
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Were horibly behind Economicaly which is why were having such a hard time keeping up Military Production, every time we get a Crawler built someone scraps it to build something Military.

A full scale military build up at this point would be logical only if we felt we could completly wipe out a major rival and end the game victoriously. This is not the case and a build up like that would just be just the thing to put us so perminently behind economicaly and tecnologicaly that we could never hope to recover.

Instead we need to focus on Economic and Tec to stay combetitive in the long run. We have a lot of small bases that are very unproductive now, with proper investment these bases could return to a resonable level of productivity.

It seems the situation with the Hive may be improving, if so then we will want to stay in a full build mode and try to work out an arangment under witch we will jointly attack the Angels. That and and eventual push for the Cloning Vats will keep us in the game, later we can concoure the Belivers for yet more territory if we wish.

Should the Hive attack us though a build up will become nessary as Geo sugjests. So I propose we create 2 different sets of Internal Affairs orders one for War and one for Peace. I will ofcorse make the peace orders and if Geo wishes he can make the war orders if he has time.

	20-03-2004 04:55									#44
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Ok, I opened the PUT thread.

It looks bad indeed, and I have a few questions:

I see a Hive drop rover in Carseldine. How can that unit drop there if the closest Hive base is out of 8 tile radius?
The only way this is possible is that a Hive transport full of drop rovers landed in Gold Coast or Sun Coast, and from there drops initiated.

Is it in a case like this possible to ask on one of the gods to look if that Hive unit came there on a valid way, and not by the multiple airdrop bug?

	20-03-2004 05:30									#45
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A little reminder: to make sure CyCon gets missile weapons prototyped and the two needlejets can be transferred, don't forget to upgrade the trance scout in Caboolture to a drop squad and drop it into a CyCon base.

Btw, should the bases of Gardens Point and Caboolture perhaps be obliterated to deny them to the conquerors? Obliterating bases together with using nerve gas might explain what Marphiac means when he says: "We don't know who scorched the lands" & "the CPU continents as they exist today, destroyed".

	20-03-2004 05:32									#46
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As for Military tentative orders:

Attack with the needlejet Carseldine (it will be destroyed after that attack, though).
A possibility then is to take Carseldine with the Battle Ogre (but that leaves Gardens Point with no real defender).

I suggest bringing the interceptor back to Caboolture by renouncing the Pact with CC. It should have all it's movements left, and can fly then to Gardens Point for double air defense (AC + Interceptor).

As for martial tentative orders for civilian units:

Bring the former and crawler around Gardens Point inbase (as a movement waister for attacking Hive/Drone units). Idem dito for the former and crawler around Cairns.
Crawler on 80.40 depends on what will happen with Carseldine. Either it moves in town when it is taken, or it moves towards Cairns.
Sea former near Gardens Point stops it's terraforming, and moves to 68.44 (will take 2 turns, and pops that pod there).
The crawler in Caboolture should be spent for the new production there.

As for martial production tentative orders:

Gardens Point: SAM missile chopper, hurry production.
Cairns: Plasma Garrison.
Caboolture: SAM missile chopper. Upgrade the defender of Caboolture to a drop unit.
Daintree: change production to flying brigade, and hurry it (perhaps 3 ec's, but will force the attackers to take it).

Any comments?

	20-03-2004 06:20									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac A little reminder: to make sure CyCon gets missile weapons prototyped and the two needlejets can be transferred, don't forget to upgrade the trance scout in Caboolture to a drop squad and drop it into a CyCon base.

We had the same again. I think my tentative orders mention a thing like that.

* GeoModder gestures upwards.

But can you answer my question about this maybe cheat?

	20-03-2004 08:33									#48
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We should probly obliterate all the Uni bases we can, especialy Caboculture, we need to deny them a base from which they can attack Portal or drop troops into Cycon territory.

	20-03-2004 21:12									#49
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Hrmph, obliterating bases...

But strategically, I have to agree.
It depends, the Drone attack choppers must be very low on fuel (hp) now, thus takes time to repair. Also, the fact that Daintree has no defender, but isn't conquered either indicates that the attackers have stretched their resources quite a bit.

That is why I suggest taking Kelvin Grove back, it forces the attackers again to take that base, and leaves Caboolture 2 turns from being invaded by drop troops.

O yes, forgot to post this before:

scrap and recycle both research hospitals (120 ec), and another base facility in the remaining bases which didn't had one (haven't checked yet which bring the most money in)
SE settings change to as much econ as possible without having unchecked drones. lab outpot on zero.

	21-03-2004 02:18									#50
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About the PUT orders still to be done:

IMO it's only a small risk not to obliterate Caboolture this turn, since the cllosest Hive base with garrison is now is 9 tiles away. Thus they can't airdrop a unit in Caboolture, even when they decide to make a suicide run with an appache.

Since PUT will be destroyed anyway within 2 turns, I want to cash the most expensive facilities, this turn the research hospitals then.

And as last, I like to hurry all productions in Gardens Point (23 ec), Daintree (4 ec) and Caboolture (96+ ec, if it is not obliterated) so to win CyCon an extra turn by some skirmishes with the 'enemy'.

Comments please, especially about the obliteration issue.

	21-03-2004 09:29									#51
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If they detroy the Unit in Cabooculture then they can prevent us from obliterating the base. Also I dont see how we can retake Kelvin, we only have 1 offensive military unit the Battle Ogree. I sugjest we make some kind of defender in Gardens Point and move in all the Formers. That will force them to expect a lot of time attacking the base. We could also try to send the Battle Ogree towards on of the Drone bases and see if we can kill a copter but thats not very likly. Hurry Plasma Garrisons ware ever we can. Generate Maximum Credits and send it all to Cycon (were going to need it)

	21-03-2004 11:32									#52
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder About the PUT orders still to be done: IMO it's only a small risk not to obliterate Caboolture this turn, since the cllosest Hive base with garrison is now is 9 tiles away. Thus they can't airdrop a unit in Caboolture, even when they decide to make a suicide run with an appache.

Couldn't they drop a unit outside the base and then move it in?

	21-03-2004 12:23									#53
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yes that Hive Drop Rover might be within range to do that.

	21-03-2004 15:11									#54
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Check the midsave, Kelvin Grove is obliterated, so Caboolture is safe from dropped units. Another problem though, When they have Cairns, the DBTSVerse is just within drop range, and we can't obliterate that base any more. I think Cairns, Daintree and perhaps Gardens Point will fall next turn.

Thus I have to agree with Impaler on producing a garrison there instead of chopper. Again, it depends on what sort of units they brought in. Their choppers must repair now, if I take the Drone chopper NW of Gold Coast as an example. Remember, those choppers had to fly two turns before they could strike. Hive choppers must have come from the eastern side of Drone territory, and also already in their second run, since those attacked further inland. I think the number of units outside PUT bases must have surprised them. It's reasonable to assume that we're safe from heavy air assaults next turn. This gives us time, I think.

If we got that time, I propose to obliterate Cairns next turn for sure, and Caboolture the turn after.

O yes, the CyCon turn will be available this evening, since I'm at work now, I can't play.

	21-03-2004 18:48									#55
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We should imeditatly switch and Rush Build an AiroPlex in Portal, that will prevent them from droping in uninvited and give us a strong air Defence base in out north that we can fly Interceptors out of.

	21-03-2004 21:42									#56
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Ah yes, build orders for CyCon turn...

I haven't heard objections to the remaining plans for PUT production, except the garrison unit in Gardens Point. Thus Gardens Point will build a Plasma Garrison and all production will be hurried if necessary.

I'll start a poll whether to attack Hive or Drones with my 'surprise' assault plan.

	22-03-2004 01:26									#57
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Damned, the dropping of the PUT drop scout in DBTSverse Portal didn't work out as it should.

Missile weapon still needs to be prototyped...

	22-03-2004 01:49									#58
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DAMN BUGS!!!

	22-03-2004 02:03									#59
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Ok did some Checking and I see some nice units we could build.

Now that we have Copters we can build Impact Copters for only 2 Rows of Mins, at 4 attack their not state of the art but vs the mostly unarmored atackers were up against their probly a good investment.

Likewise Spitfires seem better then having to Prototype Missles at this point.

Our Impact Cruisers can be upgraded to SAM at a cost of 50 Credits, they could then shoot down any aircraft that stops over water (perhaps not very likly). They can be upgraded to SAM and Plasma armor for 80 Credits. Sugjest we create a new class of Ships called Hybernia (cool name huuu?) when we come out with our next upgrade.

	22-03-2004 02:24									#60
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Upgrade in two steps then? I think it's best to let a base start with a cheap missile unit. Perhaps Logic Loop, it is in riots now. I missile chopper would take 4 turns after riots are done.