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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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Another from UnO to me:
quote:
You know, I just re-read that message to you, somehow got sentences mixed up, leading to confusion. the one paragraph should read:
quote:
We are currently researching Feudalism, but I don't have an ETA at the moment due to having not opened the save in a little while. I can tell you we do not CURRENTLY have a deal for Engineering, but are in negotiations. Chances are, though, you will be able to supply it before the locals IIRC, but that is a whole discussion of it's own. I'm not sure, we might have something else of value to you as well tech wise, have to open the save.
You can likely offer it quicker as the local team researching it is "researching" it and hording gold. And there is little evidence they have ever researched anything straight out. (Hence, my emergency buildup.)
As far as trading, we have been doing strict tech points, ala GS. So, if you know the points off hand (I don't) we'll just match the point value. It's simple, yes.
I do not agree with that, and find it faulty at best, but that is a whole other discussion based on my experience both in GoW and in real life reguarding the value of things while trading. |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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From me to UnO, and his response:
quote:
UnO,
The tech points thing works fine if both teams are researching (really researching) and there is a no-trade clause involved for the tech you receive.
That way you don't have the middle man effect - where the tech you worked so hard to research gets sold on for a pittance. CoD has been operating with its neighbors with the understanding that if a team researches a particular tech, it has exclusive rights to trade that tech.
In fact, when we first got contact with Latin Lover, we noticed we had Literature and they didn't. We did not even mention that to them for a potential deal, because Monkey had researched Lit. It's theirs to sell on. It is my intention to honor that, even though we're trying to kill them (it is indeed possible that I'm taking that too far).
If I recall correctly, the entry level medieval techs are 32 (feudalism), and 36 each (Monotheism, Engineering).
What I'd like to do is work things out so that Python is included in whatever tech dealing we do - either as researchers themselves, or as contributers of gold so that others may research faster. CoD has had a great tech trading relationship with Python, and I've little desire to leave them out in the cold. They are currently switching governments, and don't yet have a feel for what their gold/beaker output will be in republic.
Can you get me an ETA next time you guys play the save? I will look into our ETA for Engineering (and at this point, I may well slow it down!). I think it's ~12 turns.
Once I have a feel for how long it will be before you have feudalism, it will be easier to decide what we want to do. We may decide to split the cost of Engineering with Python (them giving us gold equivalent to 1/2 the beaker cost), and then research Monotheism, and revist trading at a later date (this would be if your ETA is like 30 turns). Or we might get Engineering and shut off research & rake in cash for a bit while we wait for you guys to finish feudalism (if your ETA is more like 20 turns, this could be attractive).
-Arrian |
...
quote:
Arrian,
I must ask that you not relay the following information outside your own team for now.
You guys are a bunch of slow pokes! 20 turns? 30 turns? I knew we weren't THAT far out. No, my friend, we finish Feudalism in 3 turns. However, if you stay on the 12-turn schedule, you may well still beat the locals at being able to supply Feudalism, I'll have to check. However, what you want to cover that 4 point discrepency may determine which way we lean on that, at the same time, we would essentially be giving it to two teams here as well.
Perhaps a deal can be worked where we are also allowed to trade Engineering to a single team on our side, and we compensate you in gold for the 4 points?
On the other deal, Tabemono agrees to the contact and map trades as offered with no trading of the Monkey contact. In fact, you will find them offered as unaccepted in the upcoming save.
- UnOrthOdOx
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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And finally, one more message from me to UnO.
*phew*
quote:
UnO,
Good news about the contact & map trades & non-intervention agreement. CoD is in favor as well. One question: is there an expiration date on the contact no-trade, or are we going to stick to that forever?
Yes, our continent was slower on tech. Only 3 teams, and ALL of them commercial! Two of three commercial/industrious. That seriously hurt us in opening trading. Everyone started with alphabet, and two of three with masonry. Pottery isn't exactly a big boost either. We will catch up, though, I think. It might just take a while. We have some jungle to deal with (not to mention an infestation of Monkeys). We're paying a lot for our army of workers, let alone our combat troops.
I was hoping to discuss your Feudalism ETA with Python, but of course will not pass on the info if you don't want us to. Our ETA for Engineering is 11 turns. Please also don't pass that on.
Can I at least say something like "by the time we have Engineering, they will have Feudalism" to Python?
As for trade terms... hmm.
I would propose that we trade the two techs and each of us can pass them on to 1 other team (for us, it would obviously be Python). The 4-point difference in research cost could simply be put off to the future, should we do a deal where you had researched the a expensive tech than we did.
-Arrian |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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More messages:
quote:
Arrian on the contacts,
We will not trade the Monkey contact, until you give the OK. As I am now beginning to understand the situation over there, I will respect your privacy there. I'll get back to you on allowing you to trade SS and MAST to Python. I would prefer that they offer us some compensation for them, however.
On the ETA, and it's info, if you can keep it on your side of the water, that is all we ask. Or, wait until we actually have it to discuss it since it will become apparant to anyone paying any attention we have it at that time anyway.
On the trading of the tech, we here in Tabemono would choose Sunshine to trade Engineering to, however, we are not as fortunate as your side in having a dedicated partner. This is tentative, I'm fairly sure I can convince my team of the wisdom, though. Would it be possible to get an agreement that you not offer it to Sunshine?
Lets see, formalized..
Tabemono would gift Feudalism as soon as it is discovered, as well as promise to not offer Feudalism to Monkey, and allows CoD to trade Feudalism to Python, thus may it assist in your Monkey infestation...
In return, CoD gifts Engineering as soon as it's discovered and agrees not to offer it in trade to Sunshine.
Looks good to me, I'll ask the team, but am fairly sure they will agree. (or I'll whip out my club and beat them into it)
What says CoD?
-UnOrthOdOx |
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quote:
UnO,
Fine by me on contact trading. I won't pass on contacts w/o permission from you, and vice-versa.
On the tech trading... well, actually it might be best to hold off on giving us Feudalism, since the more civs have it, the lower the research costs will be for others. We actually have no pressing need for feudalism, believe it or not.
What about this:
In 11 turns, you send us Feudalism, accepted.
We will send back Engineering, accepted.
We may give Feudalism to Python then, or we may hold it for a bit. You can pass Engineering to SS immediately if you wish.
That way, we keep the research cost of feudalism fairly high, but CoD doesn't miss a beat should we wish to go for Invention after Engineering.
Of course, I'm interested to know what SS, MAST and LL are researching. One is doing engineering, right? So surely somebody is working on Monotheism. Hmm, would that be SS?
-Arrian |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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UnO is being rather open with information:
quote:
Here's the full situation on our side of the water:
SS got Mono as their free tech, they are on Theology, no ETA known... We had a deal for Feudalism + compensation for Monarchy, they are now trying to back out. They refuse to assist anyone in offensive operations, so are useless as an ally, and we suspect they've been researching for LL through the ancient age.
MAST got royally screwed by Panzer on the map, you'll soon see, they are not in the tech race, and even lack Iron so are of no use as a military partner unless we could somehow hook them up.
LL is min-researching Engineering. Specialist even...
Just entered Anarchy, we suspect Legions as soon as that's over, but will have pikes, med inf, and cats waiting for them. Initial estimates number upwards of 60, though. We also suspect a prebuild for Leo's. Have terrifying RCP core, land made PERFECT for it.
Our land is a damn doughnut. Inland sea prevents the best use of land. Have a border deal with SS, and am preparing for what is bound to be an impending invasion on either us or MAST by LL. Probably us as there is little value in MAST lands. I think they just realized I've made their invasion plans allot more difficult, though, as they have just contacted us for negotiations for the first time in a very long time and have started pumping settlers again.
So, I was thinking of proposing a tech alliance between us. CoD, Python, and Tabemono, to gain a tech advantage. |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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Therefore, I reciprocated:
quote:
Wow, UnO, thanks for the info. A tech alliance sounds good to me. I like those, since it helps one plan in advance.
LL is scary on the powergraph... I figured they got a settler from a hut. They seem to be the big dog that may need to be contained. I wish you luck if they come after you. Legions are nasty. Gotta get those Riders, then, eh? Speaking of which, do you intend Chivalry to be your next research?
Interesting about SS. I had forgotten what civ they were. Got Monotheism for free, did they? Hmm. Are you sure they're really sticking with the happy-go-lucky roleplay, or could it just be an act?
MAST sounds kinda like Monkey over here. Of the three of us, Monkey clearly got the worst land. You will see soon enough. Python and CoD both got river starts, whereas Monkey has a 1-tile lake. All three used RCP, though Python and Monkey are using tighter spacing than CoD. Python has good land for their inner core, but we were really close to their south, and to their north/northeast is crap tundra and mountains. CoD probably has the best land of all three, especially once we do some more jungle chopping. But we're hampered by our lack of industrious workers, and the lack of a single discounted building. Ah, how sweet it is being English.
The strike on Monkey was Python's idea. They figured they didn't have enough room and needed to conquer someone. Plus, I think they just decided that peaceful trading was boring. I guess they figured hitting their good friend and neighbor, CoD, wouldn't be fun, so they convinced us to assist in a hit on Monkey instead. We weren't really in a position to refuse. Had we refused, perhaps the logical (and easier) choice would have prevailed, and we would currently find ourselves being crushed.
You're going to see this when you get the map anyway, so here goes: our continent no longer has any iron. Python used to have one, which they shared with us, but 2 turns before we were to do our mass warrior upgrade, the damned thing depleted. We have our horsemen, thank goodness, but our battle effectiveness took a big hit when the iron went bye-bye. We now must hope that Python's stack of doom (which is quite impressive) and our horsemen can do the job.
Where did that iron go, I wonder? Did you guys see a new source pop up a few turns ago? I thought that when there was a depletion, a new source always appeared somewhere else. Anyway, I'm staggered that a continent the size of ours has the resource situation it does. Zero iron, 1 horse. 1 more horse on an offshore island (likely Monkey's last refuge). It's quite frustrating, actually. The continent is massive, and has tons of hills and mountains. At least this means monkey has no iron either.
Having explained that, now hopefully you understand why we hestitated about map trading. Once that map goes around, the world will know that Comedia (our continent) lacks the single most important strategic resource in the game. Obviously, we are quite worried about the prospect of invasion from Latin Lover. Hey, we have something in common! We've invested in our navy, so hopefully we could sink a LL invasion force before it landed. Hopefully.
Please do not pass any of this on to Monkey (or anyone else, for that matter) when you meet them. If they haven't noticed the iron depletion, great. Though I suspect they have.
Well, now we know a lot more about each other. I hope that breeds trust. CoD will probably not, unfortunately, be able to assist militarily should LL come after you. But there are other means of assistance, and given LL's power, I think we'd be interested in helping somehow. Give a shout if and when the fit hits the shan.
-Arrian |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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More good stuff:
quote:
Arrian,
We haven't decided whether SS is just acting yet. Worst case, they are allied with LL and acting, best case, they are being true but are going to be a pain in our ass by opposing any offensive moves.
quote:
The strike on Monkey was Python's idea. They figured they didn't have enough room and needed to conquer someone. Plus, I think they just decided that peaceful trading was boring. I guess they figured hitting their good friend and neighbor, CoD, wouldn't be fun, so they convinced us to assist in a hit on Monkey instead. We weren't really in a position to refuse. Had we refused, perhaps the logical (and easier) choice would have prevailed, and we would currently find ourselves being crushed. |
Gee, hmmm, I've never been in that situation... 
I'm told by the turn players, we got your iron. This will give us 3 sources IIRC, and we would be happy to share assuming this relation keeps progressing as it is. Makes me wonder just how modded this map is once again, though...
Next research is as of yet undecided. Some depends on SS giving us Monotheism, of course, and if you were to head for Invention (longbows anyone?) we would without a doubt head for Chivalry. I have at least proposed skipping it at one point, though.
It could very well be that LL has changed stances and is considering heading across the pond. To our knowledge, though, their navy consists of 2 ships at present. I can say that we have no interest in seeing them expand at anyone elses expense at this point.
- UnOrthOdOx
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quote:
UnO,
Technically, you got Python's iron  THREE sources!  Well, perhaps we can work out a trade down the road, but until someone either builds the Lighthouse or discovers Astronomy, that's not possible. Thanks for bringing it up, nonetheless.
I think CoD will most likely pursue Invention, for several reasons. First, Chivalry conveys no benifit for us, without iron. Second, it's on the path to gunpowder, and we would dearly love to know if we have SP (keep in mind the two primary members of CoD are myself and Cort Haus, both Stormians!). Third, yeah, longbows. Not like we built many archers, though. It also allows Leos, though I don't think we are anywhere near ready to throw down 600 shields on a wonder. We've got too much else going on.
Dunno about the map being heavily modded... certainly not to the extent that the MZO DG map must've been. 
Anyway, I've really enjoyed this candid discussion of ours. Early in the game, Python and CoD were similarly frank, and it lead to a good friendship and solid alliance.
Can you do me a favor and keep me informed as to what happens between you and SS with regard to Monotheism? I mean, there is the question of the trade going through at all, but there is also the question of whether there is a no-trade on Monotheism. CoD would like to get ahold of that tech at some point.
-Arrian |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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And yet more discussion:
quote:
Arrian,
Standard procedure with Sunshine seems to be a 20 turn no-trade. However, I am going to do my best to convince my team of the tech alliance, and giving both it and Theology to you guys after their respective No-trade periods.
On Invention,
We are not neccessarily in a HURRY for Chivalry, and there is a decent chance we could research the invention/gunpowder route faster than you. Especially if Python were to assist funding...
This would of course require some amount of trust on your end, but I believe we've placed a good start here towards that end. I also think the speedier research would benefit your end of the pond more than us.
Just throwing out ideas now, you'll get used to it. Some of them never make any sense either.
- UnOrthOdOx
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quote:
Well, if you can indeed research faster than us (entirely possible, I'll grant), then it may in fact be better for Python to send money your way to help fund Invention research, while CoD does Chivalry for you (smaller tech).
As we get close to discovering Engineering, I suppose the best thing for us to do is to disclose our beaker output to each other. More specifically, what the beaker output is at a given science rate, and how much of a deficit that produces. But that can wait a bit.
Monotheism/Theology after 20 turn waits is probably fine. We're in no position to start plunking down 160 shield cathedrals, or even think about the Sistine. Universities are a loooong way off too. Hell, we only have a couple of libraries.
-Arrian |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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This thread is gonna hit 500 posts in no time...
quote:
Unfortunately I was mistaken in my information. I can see where I got confused, but never mind.
Sunshine in fact got Engineering as their free tech, but are ahead of us in the tech race, so will finish Monotheism this turn or next and then start Theology. Actually, in some ways this is better as we are not as far behind as I thought. That would leave MAST as the only team on this continent without Engineering, (since LL is "researching" it) so if the deal is still ok with us giving Eng to MAST substituted for SS, we would appreciate it. If not, it was my mistake and we'll eat it.
I'll ask the techies to give me beaker counts when we finish Feudalism. If the Mono deal comes through, and we are indeed faster, hording gold till you finish Engineering would be favorable.
- UnOrthOdOx
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quote:
UnO,
Oh, ah,
I'm fine with going ahead with our tech deal, simply substituting MAST for SS. SS is really hauling up the tech tree, eh? Damn. Well, at least contact with them will lower our research costs.
-Arrian |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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Sent to Rhoth:
quote:
What's done is done. Obviously, I'm not happy about it, but mistakes happen and this one cannot be reversed.
I now expect that Monkey will be relocated, probably southwest of SS... there is PLENTY of room on your continent for another civ. That is if we actually win the war anytime soon - it's going to be very bloody. We have not heard from either SS or MAST, by the way.
CoD would appreciate some sort of compensation for what occurred. I'm honestly not sure what to ask for... perhaps a tech discount in the future, or cash... but of course it's really hard to place a hard value on this. It might end up hurting CoD a lot, or not at all, or somewhere in between.
Speaking of tech, LL has asked us for a price to buy Engineering from us. I haven't yet responded because I don't have a clue yet what to ask for, and also because I remember that our Eng-Feud deal involved you passing Eng to one team over there and us passing Feud to Python. I didn't think LL was the team you were going to send Eng to, but I wasn't sure.
I think we should hammer out the specifics of that deal, so we know whether or not we can see Eng to LL, and then figure out who is going to go for Invention. I suspect it will be your team that is best at research, given your size, the Pyramids, and your industriousness (fewer workers needed). We have a horde of workers, and that horde is growing all the time. So, despite having several libraries and some markets, our research power is reduced due to unit upkeep.
-Arrian |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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Rhoth responded, but so did UnO, and his was more concrete, so I'm posting that one, and my response thereto:
quote:
I can almost promise you I am the least happy person in this situation. I've already had it out with the team.
As for Monkey relocating over here, I have made my views VERY clear to SS, and I can to MAST as well. I've not been active as much, and won't be until I get the house sold and us moved into a new on in RL. That could be a few months. 
Should either team assist Monkey in a move, I will be very favorable to declaring war on Monkey/the assisting team. I'll make a poll for an official team stance.
I've already suggested compensation but am at a loss as well reguarding what it should be. We WILL do our best to compensate, though.
They weren't. Our whole side of that deal fell through, **** happens. At least it revealed some things about the diplomacy on this side of the water. Go ahead and sell it, I doubt they would want to buy both Feudalism and Engineering from us, thus giving us double the money. However, could you delay a few turns to give us a headstart on Invention over them?
We would prefer to research Invention, and MAST is supposed to be researching Chivalry for us. SS will have Theology soon, but perhaps it would be better for us to have you research it and not give SS anything...
I'll ask the builders what they think on that. Techs aren't my thing.
- UnOrthOdOx
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quote:
Thanks UnO. I doubt it will be necessary to fight a war over this Monkey business
We will proceed with selling Engineering to LL, but will certainly give you a head start. First off, we won't have Eng for 4 more turns. How many turns over and above that would you guys want?
It might, in fact, be best if CoD did research Theology... that would kind of kickstart a tech alliance between CoD, Python & Tabemono. Python could contribute cash, of course. We would get a discount because we would be duplicating research, and who knows? Maybe we could manage to sell it to MAST or LL before SS (doubtful, but possible if we offer a real low price).
Let me know what your tech guys think.
-Arrian |
I like the idea of holding a "debt of honor" over Tabemono for the future, rather than attempting to quantify the "damage" done to us by their mistake now, and getting cash or tech for it now.
Any strong opinions to the contrary?
-Arrian
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ducki
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Hmmm... sort of a godfather "Some day I'll ask a favor..." type thing?
Sounds good to me.
This is getting really interesting. Sorry for the inactivity of late, I've just been having a somewhat less-connected phase going.
So yeah, debt of honour sounds groovy to me.
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Mountain Sage
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Me too, I'm back.
Arrian 'Il Padrino di CoD' (and Tabemono almost sounds Italian...)
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ducki
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I think I like this better than us financing someone else - it gives a sense of control, IMO.
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18-03-2004 15:14
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