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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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DRAFT response:
quote:
Kloreep,
Thanks for the note. We too are glad that contact has been made with team Tabemono. Our people are rather tired of cake, and are hopeful that trade with the culinary specialists of the world will provide more interesting fare. Was that a suggestion of fruit I saw in your note? *Consider pleasantries inserted*
We are interested in pursuing map and technology trading with you. For instance, if you have the technology known as "construction" we are interested in purchasing it. If you happen to lack Republic, we would be happy to sell that to you.
Regarding map trading, territory map for territory map is probably the easiest. World Map trading brings the question of just how much outside of our respective territories our teams know.
Finally, the subject of contact trading. You have expressed interest in meeting Team Monkey. CoD is willing to consider selling contact with our Simian neighbors, but we would need certain, ahem, assurances from Tabemono first. If you are willing to pursue a trade that carries with it some limitations, let me know and we can discuss this further.
-Arrian, Executive Transvestite of Cake or Death |
Or should we keep quiet about Monkey, like we did with LL?
I'm torn on this. At some point, we've got to figure out how to prevent either of those two teams from saving Monkey.
-Arrian
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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Messages back and forth from UnO:
quote:
Howdy Arrian,
This is both at once a private matter, but one that concerns the teams as well.
Reguarding the nature of trading maps, we certainly will agree to a territory-territory map trade, however, I am here to propose that it is in our best and fullest interest that we trade WORLD maps as well.
Can it be said what your team knows of your landmass?
I can tell you with no hesitation that we engineered a complete and full map trade with each of the other three nations on our continent. We are prepared to send you the most up to date map of this continent you could hope to achieve at this point. Surely you can see the value that this would present?
My best hope is that your team has an equally worthy map of your own continent, and that by sharing, we would each benefit mutually, and equally. Can you say what you know of your own continent then?
You have my personal assurance that you would NOT be on the short end if we agree to a WM for WM trade.
- UnOrthOdOx
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quote:
UnO,
Thanks for this message.
First, I can say that yes, we do have a complete map of our continent (we are, after all, expansionist  ). I will bring your offer back to my team for discussion (such as it is, there aren't many of us) and get back to you.
Though there may be benifits to trading maps, there are also potential drawbacks, as I'm sure you are aware. Secrecy, while it does not help build trust, can be a lifesaver in certain situations. So bear with me on this, ok? Don't get too annoyed if we ponder this one for a little while. If there is a delay, it is not the result of some animosity from my team to yours, but rather the result of caution (even if you may think it overcaution) on our part.
Thanks,
-Arrian |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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The plot thickens...
quote:
UnOrthOdOx wrote on 02-03-2004 12:49:
Arrian,
I will let you in on something here.
This has become a personal quest, actually. And, once we have contact with Team Monkey, I will be making it QUITE public. You know very well how I get with my personal quests.
I fully understand and respect the feeling of insecurity about the trading of maps. There is little I can do to dissuade the feeling of a need for secrecy. However, you already have suggested a territory map trade. With our galley scouting along the coast and a territory map in hand, there is really little else we would need with the world map for the matter of an invasion should we really choose to, thus the idea that secrecy = security in this instance is really moot, IMO.
I WILL tell you why this is important to me:
Why did the PTWDG die?
Lets face it, activity in all teams is low there.
Why did it die, then? Lack of public information.
Public information brings in new blood. The original SPDG proved that more than anything else.
I believe it was the secrecy coupled with the lack of info that lead to the hard feelings. Keeping the game as open as possible and lighthearted will be essential to maintaining the more laid back and fun attitude here.
Thus, I envision a shared world map. One posted VERY publicly. I already plan on spending a solid day taking screens and forming a mighty world map posted publicly and featured in a news article to promote the game as a whole.
A fair deal for everyone, a FARE Pact signed by all. (Fog and Rebel Extermination Pact) Secrecy is needed, yes. Hidden maps can be usefull, yes. However, IMO in the end such things will lead to destruction of the game as a whole. Let's learn from the past and do this game right and proper.
Again, I am going to be very vocal and very public once we have all contact, which I understand should be very soon. I hope that you can see the reasoning, the fun, and the lack of any malice in reguards to this request. At the end of the day, I'm still a little news boy looking for a creative way to deliver information to the audience.
- UnOrthOdOx
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quote:
Interesting, to say the least.
A couple of things:
First, I would not say the ptwdg died. For me, it's still quite alive. GS has been reinvigorated, and though we almost surely cannot win, we're playing it out with gusto. If you mean public forum stuff, well, a bit, and I do think that could be improved upon (I did add a little tidbit of my own recently).
I *do* like the idea of a big publicly posted world map once the world map has been traded around. Public forum lurkers can get an idea of what's going on just from the map. I like that idea quite a bit. Though you are going to run into problems when techs are discovered that reveal major resources... the map will have to do without updating until all teams can see those resources. But anyway, the idea has merit.
As to the timing of trading CoD's world map... well, all I can say is that I have my reasons for at least considering delaying. Even with your galley scouting our coastline. It might not make sense to you right now, which is why I asked you for some patience.
I do know how you get when you go on crusade, and I do not wish to be in opposition, but I MUST act in the best interests of my team, as perceived by the team. If that means holding on to the world map for a while longer, so be it.
However, maybe that won't be the decision. We might decide to just go ahead and do the trade you proposed. All I said was bear with me on this on, and give me a little time.
-Arrian
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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Holy ****ing shiite, batman...
quote:
Sorry,
I get on kicks now and then.
It has crossed my mind that the most likely reason for holding back WORLD maps at this stage of the game would the that there is likely a landmass other than your main landmass that you are eager to settle.
Judging by various responses and the fact that your own continent has traded maps, I am also surmising that this island is the subject of either a border agreement or a border dispute, and that you fear further parties entering into the fray/beating you to the punch.
As such, I am highly considering recommending further exploration of our western shores, as judging from the minimap this would be the most likely location of such a thing.
Let us assume that I am able to negotiate with the teams on my own continent the following:
*************************
F.A.R.E. Pact: Revision 2, New world (FARE pact 1 was our own continent and joint hunting of barbs)
All nations of either continent agree to trade maps. to facilitate and ease this transaction, Team Tabemono offers their services to be the middle man. All teams will gift their world maps to Tabemono on turn x, and Tabemono will therefore gift their, now complete, map to all teams the following turn.
All nations of a given continent agree that they will not settle in any landmass or island that is newly revealed by this exchange.
**************************
Basically, we won't settle over there, you wont over here.
Would such a thing as this be more likely to succeed?
- UnOrthOdOx
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quote:
UnO,
That could be a reason for delaying WM trading. I can neither confirm nor deny it.
There are actually a host of reasons for concealing a WM, UnO. You've thought of a couple, and then sought to argue against them (without knowing whether or not they are applicable to CoD's situation). I understand what you're trying to do, and in your shoes I might be doing the same, but CoD's situation is not the same as Tabemono's situation. Please consider the possibility that we might just have valid reasons for hesitating.
Again, WE HAVE NOT SAID NO. We have asked for you to be just a tad bit patient while we consider it.
You mentioned a pact you had with teams on your continent. Consider that our continent might have similar agreements and perhaps the teams might want to confer amongst themselves regarding this map trading thing. So maybe it's not just CoD discussing internally, eh?
Patience, they say, is a virtue. You and I have been discussing this for 1 day. That's a blink of an eye in a pbem demogame!
-Arrian |
Ok, we basically have 2 reasons for not trading maps:
1) War with Monkey. Map trade shows the world we are at war, and may or may not provide a faster route to make contact with Monkey, allowing them to save Monkey.
2) Iron. WM trade will display to the world that we have a large, juicy continent... totally devoid of iron. That concerns me. Consider that our western neighbor, Latin Lover, is very powerful, has iron, and is ROME. I worry that trading our map around will be tantamount to hanging a sign on ourselves that reads "Invade us, please!" As things stand now, the trade screen might show we don't have iron... but without our map that could just mean we have it disconnected for upgrade purposes.
HOWEVER, consider that once the world meets Monkey, Monkey will give anything to save their skins. The WM will be broadcast around the world immediately. Hence, once contact is made, the first part of point #1 and all of point #2 vanish.
Accordingly, I think the best course of action is to try and use UnO's eagerness for map trading *right now* to our advantage and try to get him to agree to a non-interference agreement of some sort. I'm still trying to work out how I'm going to try and bring up that idea to him, but I'll get there...
-Arrian
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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I finally responded to UnO. I struggled with the wording, and I hope I didn't give away too much, but I felt I owed a response. It's one thing to reject an offer, but another to simply ignore it...
quote:
UnO,
Sorry, I realized that in our flurry of PMs, I didn't actually respond to this, which is distinct from the others regarding map trades.
I'm afraid that CoD must decline your offer. We thank you for your generosity in offering a 2-for-1 deal, but we cannot accept it.
The map trading thing is still a possibility, although probably not right now. We like the overall idea for the future, but have our reasons for not wish to do it yet.
I hope you understand, UnO, that I'm not trying to deliberately obstruct your map crusade. It's all about CoD's best interests.
-Arrian
p.s. By the way, as I'm sure your turn player noticed, we established an embassy with you guys this past turn. HOLY TIGHT CITY SPACING, BATMAN! Considering the girth of your citizenry, one would think more room would be needed  |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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UnO wrote back, and then I responded to him.
I gambled, guys. I gave up our vital information (that they will learn in 7 turns anyway). I hope you're not pissed since I did it w/o discussion.
quote:
Arrian, I can't speak for all the other teams on my own continent.
As for Tabemono, our interest in your continent is only superficial, and really only involves the maps at this point. Whatever else goes on is of no concern to us at this point. So, yes, a 'no interference' would be acceptable (by this I am assuming it is 'we don't touch your continent, you don't touch ours', correct?). I thought I had put something similar in the original deal, actually, and if not, it was my oversight.
As for the maps, are we talking world or territory now? Either is still on the table. Well, our table is ALWAYS full, actually. On the contacts, 2 for 1 is still on the table somewhere as well, I'll just need to find them in between the racks of ribs.
- UnOrthOdOx
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quote:
UnO,
I ask that you please not pass the substance of this message beyond your team for now. I was going to write another vague explanation, but vagueness in the name of secrecy might lead to major problems down the road.
Cake or Death and Python are currently allied against the Monkeys. It is out intention to wipe them out. I won't say more than that until the war is public knowledge.
What I'm aiming at in terms of non-interference is for the other teams to agree not to save Monkey by gifting them a city and warping them halfway around the world. Since Monkey is not a scientific civ, I'm hoping the other teams might be willing to do that in exchange for promises by CoD and Python that we won't do that in the future when war breaks out "over there."
I don't really like the whole "save a civ" thing via city gifting. I know GS condoned it with the Voxodus and then did it ourselves with RP. But I have decided, personally, that I'm against it. If the dying civ can get a settler on a ship and make it to safety, I'm fine with it (and at that point, in my mind, further city gifting so they have more than 1 city is alright*). And if Monkey manages that, good on them, they will have eluded our navy to do it.
But enough of my personal views on the tactic. I don't know what the other teams feel about this issue, so I'm not proposing a rule against the practice at this point - I'm looking at it as "let's make a deal" rather than "let's regulate or ban this." Unless, of course, it suddenly becomes clear that many others want it regulated too.
What do you think about it? If Tabemono likes the idea, then great, and I think we should discuss it with the others (LL, SS, MAST). If your team is against it... well, I'm not sure what CoD will do. We will be back to the drawing board, so to speak, and back there having coughed up information.
I hope this helps explain our hesitation on the contact & map trading issues.
-Arrian
* - In the ptwdg examples, both Vox and RP had a chance at making it to safety with a settler-on-galley. If the Bobians had agreed to host Vox, it was easy to hop across. Even if not, GS's galleys would have had to chase the Vox galley down before it reached Lego. We probably could have, given the Great Lighthouse, but it's no given. RP definitely could have made it, since they had the protection of the GS fleet. |
*prays*
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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From UnO:
quote:
Arrian,
I'll have to ask the team, frankly.
PERSONALLY?
Well, let's see, I was the only member NOT on GS to advocate the destruction of Vox. Any question where I stand personally on the gifting/allowing to live bullsh*t? I would be rather violently against it within Tabemono. IMO, their fate is in the hands of the conquerers. My stance from the beginning.
Besides, we likey chopping trees...
Can you say how long we are looking at before their destruction? Roughly that is.
Obviously, this devalues that Monkey contact, though.
In fact, my suspision is that we are close to gaining Monkey contact ourselves since this popped up. (No, I don't mince words and am always this direct)
Haven't checked with team, so this is tentative:
How about : 2 for 1 contact, since this was already on the table. Yes, Tabemono's, we should honor it still, as it was offered. Add on agreement neither team will trade said contacts.
WM for WM, both agree not to trade said WM. Combined, this will keep you as safe from interference as you are currently. Also allows me to begin work on the global public map, which is probably going to take many hours...
Both teams agree not to interfere in the other continent for 50 turns (adjustable) unless specifically asked. This includes gifting of cities in the effort to save a dying civ, but does not include allowing a dying civ to land a galley. |
I'll get my response up in a sec...
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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Here it is:
quote:
UnO,
Good to hear your position on civ-saving and lumberjacks.
I understand that contact with Monkey is devalued if we destroy them. I'm sure, however, that they would argue that their destruction is not certain. They do, after all, have their Numidians, and skilled players to use them. Also, the CoD/Python alliance has encountered a certain problem we did not anticipate that may hurt us. Once you have a good hard look at our WM, you will understand (well, maybe you will). I'll leave that as a teaser.
I honestly don't know how long it will take to kill them. That depends on too many factors. I will admit that we have revisited this idea partly because we do not believe we can possibly wipe them out them before you make contact with them. Galleys move 3 tiles per turn, land forces at war march 1 tile at a time.
I wouldn't say that contact is imminent. We're not sure, actually. If Monkey has a galley moving in your direction, if could be really soon. If not, it will take a little while yet (let's say more than 5 turns, but likely less than 10). We have a galley sailing along LL's coast, so it's possible we could bump into SS or MAST soon too, though of course I don't know since I don't know the geography.
The other reasons I have for coming back to the contact/map trades are: 1) I like your idea for the public world map, and 2) Beta is chomping at the bit to start public forum posts based around the idea of "S.P.A.M." - the Society to Prevent Agression against Monkeys. I felt like a real killjoy when I told him CoD preferred he not start with that because it would tip off the rest of the world to something they didn't know yet. He understood, which was good of him, but I think that + your map thing could really liven up the public forum (even if the S.P.A.M. campaign is going to paint CoD as a bunch of evil bastards).
Regarding your suggested trade terms, I like the contact trading w/no-trade clause and the non-interference for 50 turns provision.
The WM for WM with a no-trade clause could be a problem, though. Do you have maps from SS, MAST and LL? We have Python and Monkey's maps. At this point Python and CoD are exchanging maps consistently - we're allies in a war after all. There are two problems I see for us here. First, I'm not sure how Python will feel about CoD trading their map away for stuff that Python doesn't get to see. How will LL, SS, and/or MAST feel about that? Second, if we agree to the no-trade clause, we can't trade WMs with our ally.
Were you including the no-trade on maps for your own reasons, or because you thought we would want one? Frankly, the map probably won't help other teams gain contact, since even without it you can tell them Monkey is south of us, and I figure LL knows that by now too.
Please take that back to your team for formal discussion. I will do the same. I'm pretty sure the other Izzardians will agree, though.
Oh, also, what are Tabemono's wants and needs in the tech race at this point? CoD is currently researching Engineering. What are you up to, and might you want to trade?
-Arrian |
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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Wow, diplomacy with UnO moves fast. More messages back and forth:
quote:
Arrian,
I thought you guys would want the no-map trading. You should know my position is to get the public map ASAP. Yes, we have everyone's maps as well.
So, Contacts for contact, no trading, no interference for 50 turns. WM for WM, trading allowed.
On the tech front, I'll have to let the tech experts tell me what we want. My philosophy is not exactly the same as the team has decided upon. Far from it, actually.
We are currently researching Feudalism, but I don't have an ETA at the moment due to having not opened the save in a little while. Chances are, though, you will be able to supply it before the locals IIRC, but that is a whole discussion of it's own. I can tell you we do not CURRENTLY have a deal for Engineering, but are in negotiations. I'm not sure, we might have something else of value to you as well tech wise, have to open the save.
Tech is really not my "thing", and Kloreep is absent for a few days, so I'll have to let the others comment more specifically on that.
- UnOrthOdOx.
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quote:
UnO,
Ok, you and I seem agreed on terms. Let's take 'em back to our teams to make sure they agree, and then get this done. 
On the tech stuff, if you can ask that Kloreep or someone else contact me to discuss possible trades, that would be cool.
Doing 40-turn "research" to finance a sword upgrade? The peek we got at your capital when we established the embassy sure looks like it. Barracks, exactly 10 shields/turn, building a warrior... 
-Arrian |
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01-03-2004 13:45
*insert pleasantries here 
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