03-03-2004 23:16									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Why should animals have rights anyway?

Animals can't have rights. They are incapable of articulating a demand for a relationship and defending it. Only humans can have rights. This doesn't mean we have to be cruel or inhumane to animals. It's generally better for us if we treat animals with kindness.

	03-03-2004 23:25									#92
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's what they want you to believe, but it's not universally true.

A paranoid statement followed by a meaningless one.

There may of course be slaughterhouses around which are not humane, but that doesn't imply that the majority aren't humane, and does not imply that slaughterhouses are in principle inhumane.

	03-03-2004 23:27									#93
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's generally better for us if we treat animals with kindness.

Why? What do we get out of it? I can understand why we would want to, out of (misplaced?) feelings of empathy, but I don't see why it would be 'better' for us.

	03-03-2004 23:31									#94
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Slaughterhouses these day process far too many animals to be humane. The stunning technique is haphazard. If an animal isn't completely out, it gets slaughtered anyway. As Spiffor noted, the animals are also well aware of what is coming, and many loose their bowels before getting stunned.

On top of that are the horrific factory farms. The issue of a painless death aside, most food animals live lives of pain and total confinement. Aside from being crue the the animals, it's also damned unhealthy for humans, as it makes it very easy for disease to spread through a heard or flock and be passed to the humans who eat them. This is why raw poulty has become toxic in the United States, while food poisoning rates have climbed steadily.

	03-03-2004 23:35									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Why? What do we get out of it? I can understand why we would want to, out of (misplaced?) feelings of empathy, but I don't see why it would be 'better' for us.

See post about factory farms above. Also, when we are callous and abusive to animals, we tend not to do so well in treating humans as we should. Callousness and cruelty towards self-aware beings is easy to transfer. Finally there is the simple fact that treating animals with kindness helps relieve stress. There have been studies showing that prisoners who have pets become less violent.

	03-03-2004 23:38									#96
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Well, I don't know where you have been, but the slaughterhouses I have been in are not like that at all. It is in the interests of the meat producer to keep the animals from being scared (because otherwise they pump adrenalin around their bodies which makes the meat tough). Also, in the slaughterhouses I have been in, the electric shock through the brain kills the cattle instantly and painlessly (at least it appears that way). They are no more stressed than lambs are at shearing time (in fact a good deal less).

	04-03-2004 00:37									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Two of my cousins are pro-choice, vegetarian women... (32 and 28 respectively) the younger says (as I've posed the question before) that animal rights IS about suffering and not death. She is a vegetarian because of health reasons (especially now that a Republican de-regulation administration is in office ) and animal suffering. She says she is against abortion, but it should be her choice, not the government's.

Then she is an idiot anyways. If she's that paranoid, she shouldn't drive anywhere either.

	04-03-2004 01:02									#98
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Then she is an idiot anyways. If she's that paranoid

Paranoid? Educated is the word you're looking for, I think.

	04-03-2004 02:08									#99
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I'm pro animal rights and anti-abortion for the same principle. I consider myself a very strong liberal, and libertarian. Go figure. The key word is libertarian .

	04-03-2004 02:18									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy The key word is libertarian .

Ah yes, as in "nutcase"

	04-03-2004 02:21									#101
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Thats the one...

	04-03-2004 02:30									#102
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quote: Christians (left or right) believe in the intrinsic worth of people? Isn't the moral worth of people conferred by God? That sounds external, not intrinsic.

That's a good question.

And yes you are right that my position is an overgeneralisation. That's what makes it fun to discuss.

Human beings have value, because they are made in the image of God. Thus, both parts are true. God confers value upon us, while at the same time, the value is intrinsic to our being.

	04-03-2004 02:59									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Well, I don't know where you have been, but the slaughterhouses I have been in are not like that at all. It is in the interests of the meat producer to keep the animals from being scared (because otherwise they pump adrenalin around their bodies which makes the meat tough). Also, in the slaughterhouses I have been in, the electric shock through the brain kills the cattle instantly and painlessly (at least it appears that way). They are no more stressed than lambs are at shearing time (in fact a good deal less).

Thank you Rogan Josh. Another onewho actually witnessed things first hand rahter than relying on speculation and third hand perhaps biased sources.

The key is it is in the best interests of the factory farmers/slaughterhouses to have high yield, high quality product.

	04-03-2004 03:02									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe The key is it is in the best interests of the factory farmers/slaughterhouses to have high yield, high quality product.

High volume is more important than high quality. All one has to do is look at the quality of our meat.

Anyway, I've seen film of slaughter, so while I may not have been inside one myself, I've seen it first hand.

	04-03-2004 03:04									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Thank you Rogan Josh. Another onewho actually witnessed things first hand rahter than relying on speculation and third hand perhaps biased sources. The key is it is in the best interests of the factory farmers/slaughterhouses to have high yield, high quality product.

I may be regarded as a little biased though, since my father owns one....

	04-03-2004 08:48									#106
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Anyway, I've seen film of slaughter, so while I may not have been inside one myself, I've seen it first hand.

Highlights of Ren and Stimpy don't count.

	04-03-2004 09:03									#107
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP I wonder how often pro-choice vegitarians commit this obvious hypocrisy?

I'm pro-choice and a vegetarian, and I don't consider myself partaking in any hypocrisy. But that's because, like many vegetarians, I am so for health reasons, not animal rights ones. Broad strokes paint bad pictures.

	04-03-2004 09:05									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Paranoid? Educated is the word you're looking for, I think.

No, paranoid works. Your chances of getting a disease from meat is very slim. There are a LOT of more important things to worry about.

	04-03-2004 09:11									#109
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Then she is an idiot anyways. If she's that paranoid, she shouldn't drive anywhere either.

Is being a vegetarian for health reasons tantamount to being an idiot, in your opinion? I'd love to hear...

	04-03-2004 09:12									#110
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Yep like Hepatitus(sp?) from bad peppers at Chiles (or was it Chi Chi's?).

	04-03-2004 09:16									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Is being a vegetarian for health reasons tantamount to being an idiot, in your opinion? I'd love to hear...

As much as buying a lotto ticket and thinking it's a good investment

	04-03-2004 09:21									#112
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker As much as buying a lotto ticket and thinking it's a good investment

Nice try, but there are medically proven health advantages to vegetarian diets.

First and foremost, it's a great weight management regimen for people with obesity problems. Vegetarians have a demonstrably lower BMI index, and many overweight people who adopt such diets shed large amounts of fat. Vegetarians are less likely to have heart disease, gallstones, or other weight-related health problems like adult-onset diabetes and high blood pressure. Vegetarians are also less likely to have a stroke and certain types of cancer, such as colon cancer. Some studies indicate vegetarians also enjoy a longer life expectancy than the average.

	04-03-2004 09:23									#113
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Oh, I thought you were talking about diseases and stuff, not just a dietary thing.

	04-03-2004 09:27									#114
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Well, I don't think those are primary concerns of the health-reasoned vegetarians. Still, one has to note that vegetarians will naturally not worry about things like e coli, trychinosis, samonella and other types of food poisoning associated with meats. Or mad cow disease!

Still, having read a good deal about the hormones they pump into cattle and chickens for mass consumption, I can't help but be happy I am not ingesting that stuff. Maybe it doesn't hurt, but maybe it does, and I certainly don't need it in my diet.

	04-03-2004 09:37									#115
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Animals can't have rights. They are incapable of articulating a demand for a relationship and defending it. Only humans can have rights.

Your either a speciesist or just privileging human language needlessly.

My cat is quite capable of defending her rights (even if not effectively). She expresses displeasure when she does not want to be picked up, brings her ball when she wants to play, wimpers when she wants food. Most animals are quite adept at expressing their desires and rights if you know how to read their behavior.

I fail to see the difference between a cat that fends off his/her attacker to assert his/her right to be let be and a person who uses language for the same functional affect.

Moreover, when you move into the ape family you find that chimpanzees are quite capable of developing a very rudimentary proficiency in human language. Presumably Koko can articulate some conception of her rights.

	04-03-2004 10:28									#116
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quote: I'm pro animal rights and anti-abortion for the same principle. I consider myself a very strong liberal, and libertarian. Go figure. The key word is libertarian .

	04-03-2004 10:45									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Still, one has to note that vegetarians will naturally not worry about things like e coli, trychinosis, samonella and other types of food poisoning associated with meats. Or mad cow disease!

What about the possible diseases you can get from eating vegetables? Such as ones you can get from say unclean vegetables? That is always a possibility. Amoebas?

"Any of various one-celled aquatic or parasitic protozoans of the genus Amoeba or related genera, having no definite form and consisting of a mass of protoplasm containing one or more nuclei surrounded by a flexible outer membrane. It moves by means of pseudopods."

Quite a nasty thing to have.

I have heard that vegans can get sicker easier too.

All you have to do is cook meats properly. Many people have it medium rare. But no unsubstantiated claims will stop me from eating meat.

	04-03-2004 10:50									#118
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quote: Another onewho actually witnessed things first hand rahter than relying on speculation and third hand perhaps biased sources.

Well, I've hunted before.

Geese are rather tasty when you pluck them, and gut them yourself.

	04-03-2004 11:00									#119
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quote: "Any of various one-celled aquatic or parasitic protozoans of the genus Amoeba or related genera, having no definite form and consisting of a mass of protoplasm containing one or more nuclei surrounded by a flexible outer membrane. It moves by means of pseudopods." Quite a nasty thing to have.

How is an ameoba a bad thing to have? I bet you got some in you right now!

	04-03-2004 17:10									#120
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I thought about the same thing in fact. I was very suprised after I've talked with a very religious and pro-life girl, who said that she doesn't care about animals, and that they can "praise the Lord by their pain too".
I was pretty embarassed.
On the other hand, I'm hesitant when it comes to testing stuff on animals. WHat is the alternative?
Oh, we could test the atuff on humans directly. Like the ones who were sentenced to death penalty. On the other hand, it's not right as well.