03-03-2004 11:12									#1
	Details of the CGN Loan Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In chat we have been discussing what conditions we should send a loan of gold to CGN. GWT has not continued advancing, so it appears as though CGN has time to upgrade some Muskets. They have saltpeter hooked up and plan on upgrading their units once they get back to Agincourt from the teleport from Boston to Arhus.

The currently favored proposal is to send a sum of gold to CGN (probably 600, 660 or 720 gold) the turn they are able to upgrade their units in Agincourt. This is 3 turns, according to miccofl.

Now then, it's time for us to decide if this is acceptable, and what the terms and conditions of the loan should be. As long as GWT doesn't penetrate for another 4 turns then our loan will probably be very effective in slowing them down or stopping them.

It's time for you non-chat people to weigh in on these things, as well as those who have discussed things in chat to codify what they think and why.

Relevant chat on this topic can be found here for those who want to read more in-depth about this issue and other related ones.

Last edited by Trip on 03-03-2004 at 11:19

	03-03-2004 12:19									#2
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Posting the chatlog is convenient. Since I already gabbed my bit there (for now), I don't need to repost it here at length.

Those not in chat please go read that, then post... we'll continue the discussion here where we left off.

	03-03-2004 13:32									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Be sure to ask CGN exactly how much gold they will have on the turn they receive the loan. We are giving them a multiple of 60 because that is the upgrade cost of a musket but if they had, say, 410g we could give them 670g (only 10g more) and they would be able to upgrade an extra one.

	03-03-2004 13:44									#4
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Certainly buying CGNs survival could be in our interests.

However, how would the loan (or grant as it would become if they continue or begin to lose) effect our research goals?

	03-03-2004 14:08									#5
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I am more worried about the potenial of not getting the money back, if CGN is destroyed.

E_T

	03-03-2004 19:49									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

As am I. I'd like us to continue to be privy to their military intel and planning, to the extent that is possible. That way we can at least try to ensure our money isn't going down the drain.

600 gold is my vote. That's what, 10 pike -> musket upgrades? Terms: we are to be kept abreast of the war with screenshots, descriptions of CGN's order of battle, troop positions and planning, as was done during the battle of Boston. CGN shall repay our 600 gold within 40 turns.

Honestly, I think we need to convince CGN to go max tax after then get GP. No more ****ing around. Max tax, rushbuilding important things at the front (Agincourt and the fort city to its southest) and unit upgrades. Iron should be disconnected. Once they've upgraded their pikes to muskets, ditto the SP. They need catapults.

They are facing potential destruction. They need to react accordingly. And, of course, convincing them to go all-out militarily carries two benifits for us:

1) They hopefully survive the onslaught.
2) Our palace jump + mostly civilian building program will vault us even further ahead in tech... and then there is our GA.

-Arrian

	03-03-2004 21:15									#7
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Speaking of screenshots, we need them to start sending them to us, starting with this last turn.

E_T

	03-03-2004 22:43									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian 600 gold is my vote. That's what, 10 pike -> musket upgrades? Terms: we are to be kept abreast of the war with screenshots, descriptions of CGN's order of battle, troop positions and planning, as was done during the battle of Boston. CGN shall repay our 600 gold within 40 turns.

These are excellent terms.

One thing we should consider, if things go poorly for CGN, is that they can repay the loan by giving us workers.

--Togas

	04-03-2004 21:24									#9
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Two questions:

1) Are we doing the loan (I think yes)?

2) If so, when do we finalize the terms and get them that cash? If we're going to do this, it's best to do it right away, when it will be of most use.

-Arrian

	05-03-2004 05:33									#10
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Do the loan, worst that happens is we lose 600-700 gold. Worse comes to worse thats like losing 10 turns worth of income at 90% tax Best case, they hold GWT off, we don't have to deal with GWT in the future, and we get our gold back.

	05-03-2004 16:14									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

If CGN collapse to GWT and they decide to disband all of their cities, could they not pay back some of the loan by disbanding all their city improvements and then gifting us that money.

We could also recoup some of our loses through CGN gifting us any wokers they have in the proximity of their capital.

It may not be much but it is better than nothing.

Last edited by jim_steer on 05-03-2004 at 17:49

	05-03-2004 16:36									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

We must remember that those money will cost GWT alot.
If we invest 600gold, how much shields/gold will GWT have to invest counter that?
And I like the Idea of CGN disbanding, repay if things goes really bad.

	05-03-2004 18:43									#13
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If things go REALLY bad, surely we will save CGN like GWT saved CGA. CGN is a scientific civ. Which means our vassal would provide us with a free industrial age tech - worth a heckuva lot more than 600 gold right there (though 600 gold invested now, versus an entry-level industrial age tech later may not be quite as lopsided as it might appear at first glance).

-Arrian

	06-03-2004 00:22									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Togas These are excellent terms. One thing we should consider, if things go poorly for CGN, is that they can repay the loan by giving us workers. --Togas

Perhaps along with this we could make plans now for evacuating them to East Asia should they get defeated...

	06-03-2004 00:33									#15
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quote: Originally posted by civman2000 Perhaps along with this we could make plans now for evacuating them to East Asia should they get defeated...

CFC may have someting to say about this, but I think they would go along with it.

But, I think that CGN will be able to hold GWT so it won't be neccessary.

Now, that said, what about when CGN goes on the offensive with Sipahi? Will we entertain GWT in East Asia? Something to ponder...

	06-03-2004 03:07									#16
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Do the loan. As per the terms above. This is money well spent.

	06-03-2004 04:43									#17
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Now, that said, what about when CGN goes on the offensive with Sipahi? Will we entertain GWT in East Asia? Something to ponder...

There is about as much chance of that happening as lucky winning every single round of combat... oh damn!

	06-03-2004 06:57									#18
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quote: Originally posted by jim_steer There is about as much chance of that happening as lucky winning every single round of combat... oh damn!

Don't you hate it when an analogy backfires.

	06-03-2004 18:34									#19
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* MrWhereItsAt grudgingly decides he can live with this deal going ahead

And a big hell yeah to ensuring CGN's survival. VOTES people! We don't want them turtling in the case of loss though, unless it is to provide a distraction for a Poly/CFC invasion of GWT homelands or an attack from the rear on their advancing armies. Otherwise, with that continent all theirs, GWT will run away with the game no matter what.

	06-03-2004 19:01									#20
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I think that it might be time for a poll, as we have had almost 3 days of discussion on this.

Lets get the terms hammered out and get this voted on!!

E_T