16-03-2004 10:25									#271
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Hardly. Rather it is exactly what every thread becomes when you can't admit that you are at odds with the facts.

I'm not at odds with the facts. In fact (pun intended), I've been consistently debunking yours...

quote: No it doesn't. It's just that there are two kinds of font smoothing available on Mac OS X and that the standard one works better than anything else for CRT displays. To my eyes Cleartype is clearly inferior on a CRT display. Otherwise the differences are not that great.

But there are two font smoothing on Windows XP too: the standard one, and ClearType... (see attached)

quote: Apparently not. Still can't remember where I'd heard that. Anyway, that looks ugly.

Yes, Agathon, of course it does. It's an ugly language.

	16-03-2004 10:25									#272
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quote: Originally posted by Asher This page tells you what it is and how it works, very generally: http://www.microsoft.com/typography...sClearType.mspx Then enable it and calibrate it here: http://www.microsoft.com/typography...ype/tuner/1.htm

gah. i have to use IE for this? :sigh:

	16-03-2004 10:27									#273
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX gah. i have to use IE for this? :sigh:

You can enable ClearType just in the "Effects" dialog box under Appearance in the Display properties, but the website allows you to fine-tune it to match your monitor. Click and choose the boxes that render best for you.

It uses ActiveX, so you do need to use IE to use the tuner.

	16-03-2004 10:30									#274
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ugh, it looks really weird to me after so long of not having it. is it normal?

	16-03-2004 10:33									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX ugh, it looks really weird to me after so long of not having it. is it normal?

It does look weird at first after spending many years without it. Just because you're not used to it, it's almost like changing the font on you.

Keep it on for a couple days, then see if you want to turn it off.

Keep in mind that it was designed for use on LCD displays, and it actually looks better on higher-end (more precise) CRTs than low-end CRTs. If you're viewing it on a very cheap or very old CRT, it might just make everything look ****ed up.

	16-03-2004 10:34									#276
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thinkpad T30. hurts my eyes a little. :-X

	16-03-2004 11:37									#277
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God, those kanji on Windows are fugly, even with the font-smoothing turned on. Look at the jagged edges on "kin"!

	16-03-2004 11:40									#278
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten God, those kanji on Windows are fugly, even with the font-smoothing turned on. Look at the jagged edges on "kin"!

Which character is "kin"?

And can you please capture the equivalent OS X "kin" in Arial or a similar font? (I used Arial Unicode).

	16-03-2004 11:44									#279
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Oops, apparently 200% zoom in Word makes them look worse.

Here's at 100%.

Attachment: oops.png
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	16-03-2004 11:46									#280
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quote: Which character is "kin"?

The one that means "money".

quote: And can you please capture the equivalent OS X "kin" in Arial or a similar font? (I used Arial Unicode).

Maybe later; I'm still at work, so I don't have access to my Mac. Don't think I have Arial Unicode, either, but I'll check. I always use Hiragino Mincho Pro for Japanese text.

	16-03-2004 13:31									#281
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still debating this?

you know what was funny?

all four of the examples that i posted (winxp, macos, kde, and gnome), in case you hadn't noticed, were exactly identical.

i made them all in kde 3.2.1 with abiword 2.0.5.

and yet kde still, somehow, looked better than "mac" kde, as some said, or better than "win" kde...

	16-03-2004 13:34									#282
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Q Cubed.

I said long ago I couldn't tell them apart.

<-- honest
Agathon and Drake are frauds.

	16-03-2004 13:37									#283
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actually, that's not quite true. i only typed the phrases out once; i used the gimp to duplicate them.

	16-03-2004 13:39									#284
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I'm not a fraud so much as I am a troll. For example, I have no idea what this...

quote: whenever i work on a mac, i ssh into my desktop and sftp everything i need there.

...means, but I acted like I did just so I could laugh when Glonkie got all bothered and practically gave us his resume trying to prove he knew what it was and how to do it. Great fun...

	16-03-2004 13:40									#285
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten ...means, but I acted like I did just so I could laugh when Glonkie got all bothered and practically gave us his resume trying to prove he knew what it was and how to do it. Great fun...

My response was a couple lines followed by a wink.

Do get out more, Drake.

	16-03-2004 13:41									#286
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quote: Do get out more, Drake.

My problem is that I go out too much. I'm ****ing knackered...

	16-03-2004 13:43									#287
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What Q^3 did was great. It shows everyone -- incase they didn't know -- just how biased some Macheads are. They see things that aren't there, constantly.

They agreed "KDE" was better because it was the position of Q^3, a well-known rational moderate, and because Agathon himself has praised KDE products before, so it wasn't much of a stretch.

Rank KDE as first as an attempt to show you're unbiased, rank MacOS second, then put Windows in last.

I suspected as such from the get-go, hence why I said I couldn't tell them apart.

This should help put to rest people's assertions that I'm an MS apologist, and rather put the problem on the Mac-end of the spectrum for being hopelessly biased trolls.

	16-03-2004 13:54									#288
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BTW, thanks for picking the most random characters possible for your example. It's a ***** finding some of these...

edit: And which font size did you use?

	16-03-2004 13:55									#289
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It was completely random.

	16-03-2004 14:20									#290
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Jesus, these characters aren't even all available in the same fonts. Number one and three seem to be causing the most problems...

	16-03-2004 14:24									#291
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Is a troll considered a success based on how long the respondants take to make a trivial point?

Oh yeah, and this is clearly a Mac limitation of fonts if you can't use the same font for all that.

	16-03-2004 14:51									#292
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Alright, this is the best I could do. Changed the nikuzuki inside the mon in character one to a hi in order to get a kanji that would display in the same font as the others. Also omitted the last character, as I can't for the life of me figure out which radical will allow me to access the character. Font is also slightly different, but it's the closest I could find that would also display most of the characters.

Attachment: picture 1.jpg
This has been downloaded 48 time(s).

Last edited by Drake Tungsten on 16-03-2004 at 15:04

	16-03-2004 14:52									#293
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Now for a real font (on some of the characters, at least)...

Attachment: picture 2.jpg
This has been downloaded 48 time(s).

	16-03-2004 14:55									#294
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quote: Is a troll considered a success based on how long the respondants take to make a trivial point?

Hey, you asked me to post some pics and I said I would. Excuse me for trying to keep my word; I guess I won't bother next time.

quote: Oh yeah, and this is clearly a Mac limitation of fonts if you can't use the same font for all that.

The problem is that most of the characters you typed are traditional Chinese ones, which aren't exhaustively covered by the Japanese fonts I have on my computer. The only way to get them all would be to install all the traditional Chinese fonts I didn't bother with before, but I can't be arsed to do that.

	16-03-2004 17:28									#295
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quote: whenever i work on a mac, i ssh into my desktop and sftp everything i need there.

it's great. pretty much all it means that i don't bother with saving my files on the lab computers (which is why i never had asher's 'problem' with the finder's directory display structure), because whether i'm in windows or in linux, i have access to all of my files by remotely logging into my computer. this actually saves me from having my files deleted by some numbnuts, closed out because of space issues, and so on. it's all on my computer, accessible from any computer in the world (so long as my comp is on).

until recently, i could only do this while my computer was in linux, but i've found a free openssh daemon for windows: http://lexa.mckenna.edu/sshwindows/
which works beautifully.

though it was a complete ***** to get it to listen to port 2202 instead of 22, and to get kerio personal firewall AND windows firewall sp2 to allow it. almost as frustrating as iptables, though that's because i can't be bothered to learn all of the vagaries in iptables' commands.

	16-03-2004 19:54									#296
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed still debating this? you know what was funny? all four of the examples that i posted (winxp, macos, kde, and gnome), in case you hadn't noticed, were exactly identical. i made them all in kde 3.2.1 with abiword 2.0.5. and yet kde still, somehow, looked better than "mac" kde, as some said, or better than "win" kde...

Well -I followed your labelling and they looked different to me.

	16-03-2004 20:14									#297
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed you know what was funny? all four of the examples that i posted (winxp, macos, kde, and gnome), in case you hadn't noticed, were exactly identical.

Well, I guess I preferred the last one because it looked darker (more contrasted) on my laptop screen.

	16-03-2004 20:26									#298
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quote: Originally posted by Asher On-topic. Some changes.

Wow, that's a cool wallpaper you got there.

	16-03-2004 20:28									#299
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I agree with you Spiff. The last one clearly looked better. If I was a real Mac fanatic I wouldn't have picked KDE anyway.

More to the point, this is yet another reason to install KDE on my machine.

Back to Asher's original article.

It is clearly out of date since font smoothing works all the way down to 4 point in Panther.

Attachment: picture 1.jpg
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	17-03-2004 00:09									#300
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honestly, i can't see how the last one would look better. it was the same image as the first two, merely duplicated.

if you're going to install kde on your mac, might i suggest going all the way and using gentoo/ppc?