06-03-2004 19:14									#1
	New project: The Deployement Machine Increase Your PM Length

Hi!

First of all, as some of you already know, I firmly believe that CivDip is finished as a all-PBEM-stuff utility. I'll corect any bug and I'll provide technical support in the future, but I don't believe there is still too much to add.

So I've come with an idea about other utilty. I know, I know, I'm only making utilities, but as I'm a medrioce programmaner and a very ban scen desing is the only thing I can done to contribute to the community.

I'm thinking about an utility to allow you to deploy your troops inside your country at the beginning of the scen. Of couse I'll allow scen designers to limit the way it can be done...

I'm still thinking about the details

What do you think? Any idea or suggestion?

	06-03-2004 20:31									#2
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It sounds fine.
The first "easy" way to limit deployment (I can think of) would be to divide the map in zones and limit unit placement for each zone. Limiting deployment to cities or excluding certain terrain types could be accomplished by such a rule.

I think it could also be handy to be able to move cities (incluing odd/even locations). A command line tool would be sufficent for this at first.

	06-03-2004 20:43									#3
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I'd rather have a GUI tech tree editor, but for tactically intensive scenarios I guess it would add a lot to gameplay. Are you going to define "country" ITO the area for a certain distance around your cities, or only inside your cities themselves? Or something variable?

	06-03-2004 22:55									#4
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That would be ideal for my scenario.

	07-03-2004 00:50									#5
	Re: New project: The Deployement Machine Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by yaroslav I'm thinking about an utility to allow you to deploy your troops inside your country at the beginning of the scen. Of couse I'll allow scen designers to limit the way it can be done...

One of my wildest dream had always been an utility that allow to import units from a scenario to another: it would be great for creating multiple-scenarios campaigns.

	07-03-2004 01:15									#6
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Well, guys, thanks a lot for your feedback. I want to cotribute with a good utility to the comunity, so if you prefer to have a graphical editor of the tech tree, I'll do it instead of the Deploy Machine (in fact, it's a lot easier to do the graphical editor than the Deploy Machine).
----
Elok:

I'm still thinking about it. It'll probably defined by the scen designer, and could be a list of cities (or distances to cities), squares or both.

	07-03-2004 01:16									#7
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Justiniam: tell me about it. What do you exactly want? Because what you're asking for it's not very difficult.

	07-03-2004 01:42									#8
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It would be cool to be able to have barbarians as different nations, i.e. barbarians fighting each other (the player could just have special units for each of their factions). i guess that a utility that allows more than 7 civs is out of the question? well it cant be that hard, since civnet for example has that, but is it against copyright or anything? still imagine civ2 with 10 or more different nations!
also one could exploit a bug in civ2, if you have an enemy unit appear in a city then the armies of the cityciv attack their own units, thinking that the city is foreign, and the enemy armies do not capture it, thinking that it is their own. i (somewhat, well not exactly, i am mostly making this up heh) used this in my scen to demonstrate the civil war between lombards and other latins in the latin empire of constantinople (yeah, thats just it!)
infact you can exploit that bug if you just build a utility that changes the colour of the unit's shield each time such a "civil war" happens, and then easily name it civil war, with a generic text. Although i am not sure if there is a technical issue with having a different colour than the used 7 + 1 (barbarian). does this sound workable to you Yaroslav?

Last edited by varwnos on 07-03-2004 at 01:49

	07-03-2004 03:20									#9
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quote: Originally posted by varwnos It would be cool to be able to have barbarians as different nations, i.e. barbarians fighting each other (the player could just have special units for each of their factions). i guess that a utility that allows more than 7 civs is out of the question? well it cant be that hard, since civnet for example has that, but is it against copyright or anything? still imagine civ2 with 10 or more different nations!

Yes, 7 civs will mean a complete hack of civ2.exe, who is VERY difficult (I dare to say near impossible) unless the source code of Civ2 is given (a thing that happend with CTP2 but doesn't seem very likely with Civ2).

Although I can also dream about a civ2 with more than 7 barbarians, it's out of question, regretabily.

quote: also one could exploit a bug in civ2, if you have an enemy unit appear in a city then the armies of the cityciv attack their own units, thinking that the city is foreign, and the enemy armies do not capture it, thinking that it is their own. i (somewhat, well not exactly, i am mostly making this up heh) used this in my scen to demonstrate the civil war between lombards and other latins in the latin empire of constantinople (yeah, thats just it!)

nice exploit

quote: infact you can exploit that bug if you just build a utility that changes the colour of the unit's shield each time such a "civil war" happens, and then easily name it civil war, with a generic text. Although i am not sure if there is a technical issue with having a different colour than the used 7 + 1 (barbarian). does this sound workable to you Yaroslav?

Regrettabily, the game doesn't allow to have unit with different colours than the civ, unless these colours are part of the units.bmp, I think. About creating units...

... well, the problem of that approach is that it implies a modification of the game WHILE IT'S RUNNING, a thing that can be made*, but that I don't think it's fair.

Why? Because I can write an utility that will create units (I think that I can, although I'm not entirely sure about it) while the game is running, it will only work in PC, and not in MACs.

In fact, that idea of not betraying MAC-users if what is stopping me of making an utiltity that extends the EVENT language to include more space for events and more powerful events.

	07-03-2004 05:22									#10
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quote: Originally posted by yaroslav Why? Because I can write an utility that will create units (I think that I can, although I'm not entirely sure about it) while the game is running, it will only work in PC, and not in MACs. In fact, that idea of not betraying MAC-users if what is stopping me of making an utiltity that extends the EVENT language to include more space for events and more powerful events.

Yaroslav, if you do that, you do realize that the title of God-Emperor will be bestowed upon you? Can you handle the responsibility?

	07-03-2004 10:36									#11
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quote: so if you prefer to have a graphical editor of the tech tree

This would be useful! If you decide on this one, maybe you could post a mock up to show what you have in mind.

	07-03-2004 12:01									#12
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What if the game was saved, the editor was run, and then you reloaded the game?

	07-03-2004 12:54									#13
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A tech tree maker would be stunning, a really useful utility that the whole community could use!

Of course the deployment system sounds awesome too!

I hope Yaroslav can do both!

	07-03-2004 13:21									#14
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Here's my idea for a tech tree designer...

Obviously I have no clue as to the actual hex part, that is where the hex genius, yaroslav comes in!

There would be 'next tech' and 'save' buttons on there too...Just imagine them...

Attachment: yaro1.jpg
This has been downloaded 129 time(s).

	07-03-2004 14:46									#15
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hm, sometimes one misses the simplest ideas! you are right yaroslav, one can just have a unit with a shield graphic that has a different colour than the civ it is used by, and the other civs, and just use that for civil war events

what is really needed as a utility-powered option for events is the option to create randomturn units not in specific locations, but in squares in x distance of the existing cities of the nation they are given to! since now you can have units appear randomly, but if you have conquered the city they appear near to it pretty much ruins the effect

btw have a look at my scen
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=110047

Last edited by varwnos on 07-03-2004 at 14:57

	07-03-2004 16:56									#16
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quote: Originally posted by yaroslav if you prefer to have a graphical editor of the tech tree, I'll do it instead of the Deploy Machine (in fact, it's a lot easier to do the graphical editor than the Deploy Machine).

Here, here!!

The deploy machine would be nice, but I admit that I have been dreaming about a graphical editor for tech tree for a while now (I even thought about opening a thread asking if someone would do it... )

So if you could do it, I'm sure I could use it (and translate it, of course )

About the "More powerful events": what have you in mind?? New kinds of events (like what??), or "only" more events space??

	07-03-2004 17:22									#17
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Ok, guys, it appears that the graphical editor of technologies is more demmanded that the machine of deployement, so I'm going to do that first

I was thinking in something that looks like the original poster of Civ2, where you can drag&drop tech and put the prerequistes and so on... Although Curt's way is a lot easier to do.

Let me think about it and make some draft work in order to see what I'm able to do.
----------
About the extendend events: It's possible. It has been done for ToT and there's no technical reason for that work not being duplicated in Civ2 MGE (in fact, SCDR and me discussed about it some months/years ago): see the project CSPL for TOT

http://coc.apolyton.net/utilities/index.shtml

or download it from

http://coc.apolyton.net/utilities/CSPL.zip

The problem of the CSPL project is that it accept the "superevents" only in a programming language way, so it's very difficult for scenario desing, because desginer don't know C or C++ or other computer's language. My idea would be to make a CSPL for PCs , but accepting input as a text file with events, like standard Civ2.

But CSPL for MGE has two problems:

1) First of all, it must be done in C/C++ instead of Java. That means that I need to recicle my code for C and locate a good AND free compile for C.

2) It'll mean that the MAC users will lost the compatibility (because I don't own a MAC so I can't programm a MAC-version) with the scens desinged that way. And both Henrik and POTUS (the Mac-civers I know) are so nice guys that they don't reserve to suffer that.
----

So the people have spoken. I'll do the visual tech-three designer.

Unless any other idea will be suggested

	07-03-2004 17:54									#18
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What I was dreaming of was a pseudo-database click-and-drag interface, where you could shuffle around prereqs on a visual tree; left-click picks up a tech to move it to a new space, right click opens options like "make a prerequisite for" or "assign this tech a prereq."

I'm probably just dreaming there though...

	07-03-2004 19:23									#19
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For a visual editor, the trick is connecting those techs. I recently finished a tech tree diagram with Visio and realized that the possibilities are endless. My guess is that you'll need to start with techs in 'fixed' locations but have dynamic connectors. Since connected tech trees will often look like spaghetti, you'll need some method to focus on a particular part. Maybe clicking on a tech will highlight either all preqs and descendents or just the immediate ones. Another important feature would be a check for the kind of loops that crash Civ.

	07-03-2004 19:26									#20
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Boco, that tech tree is wonderful.... I hope I'll do something only 1% as impressive as it is.

Let's see what can I come with...

	07-03-2004 19:45									#21
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quote: Originally posted by yaroslav Why? Because I can write an utility that will create units (I think that I can, although I'm not entirely sure about it) while the game is running, it will only work in PC, and not in MACs. In fact, that idea of not betraying MAC-users if what is stopping me of making an utiltity that extends the EVENT language to include more space for events and more powerful events.

I love you Yaroslav

	07-03-2004 19:58									#22
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Even if the output file would be a complete '@civilize' list, numbered 0-99, it would be a tool of massive use to vets and newbs alike!

Pondering:
How would one handle stand-alone techs or 'no,no' techs in this system?

	07-03-2004 20:12									#23
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This is reminding me of the guy who wants to hump Mercatore Uno's leg. You're gaining groupies!

Yaroslav, what you're trying to do is far more useful than one glossy guide sheet. My pic could never serve as a useful template for other scenarios. On the other hand, your utility will need to be far more flexible, perhaps a column or two of boxes representing techs. Click and drag one to another, and you establish a preq relationship that's shown by an arrow. Export that as an @CIVILIZE section, and designers will virtually adulate you. Even if it's in monochrome. Frankly, I'd be happy with the textual database approach that Curt's showing.

	07-03-2004 23:37									#24
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For "no, no" and nils, couldn't you just have a dead-end link option? Maybe a special mark or coloring to distinguish the nonos...

It might be nice, as an extra, to have a query system like the diagrams in the civilopedia entries, to let you view a specific "thread," from Horseback Riding to Tactics, without extraneous techs. I've often wanted to be able to just look at a single chain and think, "am I jumping the player through enough hoops before he can get this wonder? Are the incentives sufficient, including abilities gained along the way? Am I giving too much compared to the amount of research needed?" But that could be done with a full tree too. A limited alphabetizer, that respects special slots but otherwise assigns techs in an organized fashion, would help with user-friendlyizing scenarios. Don't feel compelled or anything though, I'm just spitting out ideas in case you're a perfectionist. I too would be happy with any editor that didn't spontaneously rename all the players "Michelangelo's Chapel," and all the other grief the FW editors give us.

I agree that it could be saved to an @civilize, especially to accomodate different versions of civ (FW, ToT, MGE) without a hassle.

I second-er, fifth the sentiment that this will be an immense help if you pull it off!

	08-03-2004 00:59									#25
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I'd like to see a tool for expanding scenarios gameplay possibilities, rather than an utility to speed-up the scenarios creation process. Here's some ideas:

1) Think about Red Front, but played as germas: the scenario creator need to use a lot of events to create the high number of units required to perform "Operation Blau", so wasting a lot of space that could be better used for other events. What about a script that when you load the "summer 1942" file creates in Rostov the high number of units required to launch the attack on Stalingrad?

2) The second idea is a bit more complex, but more fascinating. Think about a multi-part WW2 scenario: of course turns are month-based, but when the battle of El-Alamein is approaching the player is prompted to save the game and load a new map excpecially created for this battle, in which turns are day-based. The script should be able to take all the units in a specified map rectangle in the .sav file (one for axis units and another for british one) and place all of them in a specified location (again one for axis and another for british) in the new map. So the new map could use all the units formerly created in the main scenario. At the end of the bonus map the utility should be able to take the surviving units and to place them again in 2 specified locations for resuming the main scenario.

3) Another fascinating idea is to track how many (and which) cities does a player have at the loading of a certain part of a scenario (I'm still thinking with a multi-part scenario in mind). Think again about a WW2 scenario: what if at the beginning of 1945 Germany still have Minsk, Königsberg and Kiev? You could load a different set of files in which Russians have a lot more difficulties in reaching Berlin (and perhaps Germany could even conduct a separate peace treaty).

4) If you could track down how many shields a certain city have produced since the beginnig of the scenario one player could find, when he loads the last part of a scenario, that the Ploiest oil fileds production has dropped significantly.

I hope that my suggestions has been useful to you, and I want to say a big "THANK YOU" for your effort.

	08-03-2004 01:14									#26
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Quick reply.

1) Possible. A possible idea after this tech-tree displayer Thanks

2) Possible, but I don't know if that is a priority for scen dessingers

3) Possible, but again I don't know how many poeple like it.

4) Not possible I'm afraid, unless it's done while the game is running (that means NO MAC) or a savegame for each turn is given to the program (very very tiresome).

Thank you for your suggestion. I'll get more community feedback to know if they're top priorities

	08-03-2004 01:26									#27
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Good ideas Justianum

	09-03-2004 01:41									#28
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Curt, your idea would hardly be interesting, wouldn't it? (no offense) It would be easier to simply edit the lines in the rules.txt.

A tech tree editor only really starts to become interesting when it allows you to click-and-drag technologies to piece an actual tree together.

By the way, if you're going for the tech tree editor, yaroslav, I have one vital suggestion: make sure that all special properties of technologies (Ceremonial Burial is required to make Temples work, Explosives enables transforming terrain, Guerilla Warfare enables Partisans etc.) are marked as well.

Apart from the drag-and-drop tree interface (which really only controls the prerequisites), there would also be a window where you can specify settings for each tech, like the image Curt showed... But it should include a drop-down box or something with all those "funny" technology side effects. That way people can take advantage of, or avoid those funny techs without the hassle of placing them correctly, and of course the advantage that they can immediately see which "special effects" are available. But this wouldn't work anymore when their tech tree becomes so large there aren't any "safe" places left. The user should probably be given a warning in that case.

Oh, and about Justinianum's #4 suggestion... Have you seen my (yet unreleased) CivSwap utility? When you have the autosave turned on, the XX_auto.sav (with XX being the first two letters of the leader name) will automatically be updated at the start of the human player's turn... The thread on CivSwap is here:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=99104

	09-03-2004 04:50									#29
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No offense taken, Merc.

My idea would be a good labour-saving device for new and old designers.

Also, it would cut out the typo factor, by giving a ready-made block that is ready to be merely pasted into rules.

Saying we need 'drag and drop' is fine and good, but only if someone is willing to perform the programming to make this possible.

	09-03-2004 16:23									#30
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling Saying we need 'drag and drop' is fine and good, but only if someone is willing to perform the programming to make this possible.

*cracks a whip at yaroslav*

Aaah... finally I can do that myself.