12-03-2004 14:36									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch Sounds ok for the examples you have given, but what about (i.e.) if you being hit by a drought and teaching the AI to rushbuild those buildings? (In other words, setting priorities)

Ermm, well most events take like at most 3 turns, I hardly think that's worth rush-buying over. I don't think I would do that myself, unless I had plenty of gold to waste (in which case I would mass rush buy stuff anyway).

	12-03-2004 15:07									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Ermm, well most events take like at most 3 turns, I hardly think that's worth rush-buying over. I don't think I would do that myself, unless I had plenty of gold to waste (in which case I would mass rush buy stuff anyway).

Even with only a short period, might make a huge difference. Let's say a human would have 10 cities, 5 of them without the appropiate building(s), but plenty of gold. What would he do, rushbuy.

For the AI in the same situation: I don't think the AI would handle it properly/accordingly. And having those 5 cities being hit, could make a huge difference on the long run.

	12-03-2004 15:16									#63
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In the short run, it might make a minor difference. In the long run, it wouldn't make the slightest difference as the AI would (or wouldn't, depending on the settings) build those buildings anyway.

But if you want, it really isn't that hard to script AIs to rush-buy if a Drought takes place and they have the right building in the queue anyway (and they have sufficient funds).

	12-03-2004 15:29									#64
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That starts to sound better. I just don't like a cheating AI or giving the AI advantages.

So if we can teach the AI to do it accordingly, and I mean accordingly, I don't see a problem anymore.

BUT (sorry had to mention it):

Teaching would mean for me that this shall not interferre with the AI's goal (what we still have to fix as well IIRC). In other words, would be silly if the AI would start to rushbuy those buildings if it is in dire need of military units. Can we cover this as well via SLIC?

	12-03-2004 15:36									#65
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I said the AI would only rush-buy if the buildings are in his queues anyway. If it's not in need of those buildings they wouldn't (or rather shouldn't) be in those queues...

But like I said, I think you're way overestimating the intended effects that disasters would have. Okay, Drought might be a tad powerful as I proposed it, but it can be toned town. It shouldn't be, they should be nuisances, not atual disasters.

	12-03-2004 15:37									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch ''Id lean towards having it off for the AI.....etc'' Doesn't sound good for me, just hitting the human? Why?

Because the human is too good at CTP2?
Or to add some fun unexpected/challanging things for the player to deal with? - if they choose to off course

EDIT: I remember even 'Kingdom'(i think it was called!) on the BBC micro, a sort of ancient fore-runner to the Civ genre; It had a couple of random events for the player to deal with, and as it was a fairly basic game it added alot of atmosphere. It helped bring the player into the game by giving him adversities to overcome. And added an element of realism, so you realy felt like the ruler of a kingdom.

	12-03-2004 16:24									#67
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CoT:

"Because the human is too good at CTP2? "

Than we shall improve the AI


Locutus,

"I said the AI would only rush-buy if the buildings are in his queues anyway. If it's not in need of those buildings they wouldn't (or rather shouldn't) be in those queues..."

That is something we (or better our programmers) shall check if they can properly handle it. In other words make sure that queues can be changed according to the goal of the AI. And we aren't yet there at this point, so we shall be better off waiting.

"It shouldn't be, they should be nuisances, not atual disasters." That sounds better It was just that certain things sounded to much like whipping a civ of the face of the earth

	12-03-2004 17:05									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch That is something we (or better our programmers) shall check if they can properly handle it. In other words make sure that queues can be changed according to the goal of the AI. And we aren't yet there at this point, so we shall be better off waiting.

Errmm, how do you think the AI currently determines its build queue? It rolls a dice? (Though admittedly it can sometimes feel that way )

quote: It was just that certain things sounded to much like whipping a civ of the face of the earth

Can't speak for anyone else, but I for one have always said (since long before the start of this thread) that disasters should be a nuisance, they shouldn't be so bad that a human will simple reload or quit.

	12-03-2004 17:34									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Errmm, how do you think the AI currently determines its build queue? It rolls a dice? (Though admittedly it can sometimes feel that way )

That's how it sometimes feels like. And I admit openly: I don't know how it is done in the moment. I don't know how the AI decides if it shall build units or buildings/wonders.

quote: Can't speak for anyone else, but I for one have always said (since long before the start of this thread) that disasters should be a nuisance, they shouldn't be so bad that a human will simple reload or quit.

Agreed

I don't mind if the sligher would provide it, but it shall clearly say so. If people want to get shot, why not.

	12-03-2004 23:10									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch One thing which disturbs me with those random events: Can the AI handle it? No doubt that the normal player can handle it (most of it, at least) For MP games it could be fun

Well they wont be on in any MP game i play. A little randomness is good but these disasters would have to be really weak for me to turn them on. Wonders are unbalancing enough.

	15-03-2004 20:45									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Well they wont be on in any MP game i play. A little randomness is good but these disasters would have to be really weak for me to turn them on. Wonders are unbalancing enough.

I never thought of the MP implications(its been a while ), but yeah the whole idea is to have them as a start up menu option, so no-one is going to be forced to play with them, but for those that want a more realistic game then they will provide much flavour(bring on those locust's .....Locutus ), and add another level of challange for the player.

	20-03-2004 23:57									#72
	Civ3 CONQUESTS addon has Natural Disasters Support Apolyton

Interesting the Civ3 CONQUESTS addon actually has disasters



OT:It also now has marsh, which reminds me that the CTP2 marsh terrain needs some additional features, e.g. % chance of losing units (and units losing health as 1 unit represents many) as they cross hazardous marshland

	21-03-2004 03:22									#73
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YES THE***********************************************
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	21-03-2004 03:31									#74
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lets just hope the CTP2 volcanoes wont look like standard mountains with chimneys copy/pasted onto the top of them

	21-03-2004 03:44									#75
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Pre-eruption or post eruption

	25-03-2004 21:25									#76
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After having quickly read this thread, a couple of ideas occurred to me:
- natural disasters have two types: the one off like a volcano or tsunami and the repeating events like floods and droughts
- El Nino y La Nina have been happening since forever

Human history has been continually shaped by weather events and cycles. So what is needed for CTP2's reworking is the addition of global weather effects and localized disasters. Since it already does pollution, why not make it so that terrain can be changed as the global weather just like it was a pollution effect.

Localized disasters like floods can be relegated to only destroying improvements in the immediate area. The AI would need to assess just how severe the event was, and then destroy improvements that should be affected.

Disease events make for a far more complicated problem since they are related to both weather and city design/improvements. Part of what ended the Roman Empire in the West was a plague that came out of central Africa. The plague was carried by rats on Arab trading ships that picked it up from infected mosquitoes? along shores of Tanzania. The plague made its way out of the jungles in the Congo when a volcano errupted in Indonesia, and caused the global climate to cool for several years. Roman records said the setting sun was turning blood red - ash in the Statosphere.

So disease events need to include any improvements made to a city for Sanitation, water distribution, food supply and siege conditions.

Ancient Rome had sewers that are still partly in use today. London used to have cholera outbreaks in the poorer areas because some wells were contaminated. Granairies were used to store food for when cities were besieged in a war. All of these should have significant impacts on the population and happiness in a city.

Granted the epidemiology shows that diseases usually don't have a huge impact in terms of actual deaths, they sure can take morale down a few pegs. Only two recorded pandemics have ever had huge numbers of casualties: the Black Death and the Spanish Influenza. They were about 400 years apart. If the game is going to reproduce these events, then there has to be some preconditions for it's happening.

Plagues need a means of travelling. In the medieval era's, that could mean having trade routes, lots of jungles or marches in the area of a city, and no sanitation improvements. In modern times, it would mean the presence of a port, airport, and huge population densities.

I'm not a coder, and do mostly intuitive thinking, so don't ask me even where to begin to add any of these features to the source code. I have't looked at the SLIC in a really long time, but I will check to see if there is any simple way to add any of these ideas.


D.

	25-03-2004 23:05									#77
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I know disasters have been mentioned and covered alot. But I would like to see disasters have a slider like barbarians (in Civ3 it goes from none to raging).

And I still hope that the disaster effect is from a barbarian like Gaia player that ranomly "attacks" cities and units and cant be negotiated with.