08-03-2004 05:10									#1
	[DESIGN/GRAPHICS] Natural disasters Full PM-box? Change here!

Natural disasters are common place throughout history

weather or not they are small scale to large scale. This is something currently lacking from CTP2, yet it has and does play a huge part in the history of the world. I think this is something that should certainly be implemented into CTP2

Some disasters could simply be (smaller scale) and appear as message boxes/warning boxes (if it happened near by and effected surrounding wildlife and land but not your civilization/city directly

To the other extreme of visible changes in terrain (errupting volcanos and asteroids... yes a very real threat read here for more info
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/...can_steel.shtml

I would really love this idea and im sure others would, but OF COURSE it would need alot of discussion (reason for this thread) and alot of work (graphics and balancing) but when worked right i really think this would be great

Effecting terrain and the landscape over time would be a nice feature of the disasters also (and even a nice feature in general without having to involve disasters)

-SMIFFGIG

	08-03-2004 07:22									#2
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Could we make these barbarian units that are destroyed after attacking or after one turn? But also cant' be attaced. I figure we can do more with CtP2 now than Civ3 editing

Great Ideas by the way (I assume though people would want these as options)

	08-03-2004 07:51									#3
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The thing about random events is that they can become annoying as hell if the player doesnt feel he can control or affect them some how, or at least i do. Disease related disasters are fine if you can prevent them with buildings, but if you just got so far ahead then an earthquake comes along and kills 10 pop from your capitol its annoying, not fun.

	08-03-2004 09:02									#4
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Yeah i agree with you maq but it should be something that could be turned off and on like pollution. Then again pollution can be coped with i suppose thats why they made underwater cities possible. Anyway the point is toggle switches good forced play options bad.

have a banana?

	08-03-2004 13:38									#5
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I am not sure , but defently as an option.

And how do you want to prevent the damage from vulcanos with buildings Same goes for a Tsunami.

Ok, plagues might be able to be prevented with buildings (pest = hospitals, but would come already fairly late).
Femine (sp?) could be prevented with granary.

But I see one big drawback: It might be to anoying for players. Let's imagine you are already struggling to keep up with you enemies/opponents and suddenly you are being struck with disasters. That could be a fun-killer

If we would make it that the leading player(s) would be struck more likely, that could make a difference:

Explanation, why: As they would do more research, a desease would be more likely. Trying to invent better weapons, could cause huges fires in a city. Or like upsetting their gods for not fullfilling their wishes

Generally speaking: (my point of view)

It might be an interresting option for 1 or 2 games, but I guess people will then switch it off.

	08-03-2004 18:17									#6
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quote: And how do you want to prevent the damage from vulcanos with buildings Same goes for a Tsunami.

Thats why i said disease related disasters.

Punishing the leading player in science with an earthquake is just silly and totally unfair. A better thing would be to give drastic pollution increases for the first person to discover a particularly polluting advance, then the next players to discover it get less pollution each time.

So player 1 discovers Industrial Revolution first, he gets the massive increase in pollution from pop and production, then player 2 discovers it next and gets half as much pollution, player 3 a quarter of it etc.

	08-03-2004 19:12									#7
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Maq,

Just wanted to say it in my words and I thought maybe yours was a bit short, just wanted to give more details, nothing else

And no, I didn't mean to say, the leader shall be punished by earthquake, more thinking in the direction of disease myself as mentioned in the examples.

For the pollution:

not sure about. There were countries being the first to invent something and they never used it in such a way which we think nowadays of and therefore not really causing the pollution:

Explosives: Chinese, only used for fireworks till Europeans came over and stole it.
Oil Refinery: Not sure, who invented it, but Oil has been used for quite a while and only when used for 'industrial-scale' purpose it was becoming a problem.
Industries: Same thing, it was just a question of the scale, not the first one inventing it.
Automobile: Invented by Mercedes and Benz, wasn't really any problem at this time, only like ~30 years later it started, when it was getting onto a great scale.

So, then only the player, which reached a certain number of facilities shall be 'punished', but not the one inventing it.

Another nice example: Atomic Energy: I don't think whoever developed it first, knew about the possible problems and pollution out of it.

	08-03-2004 21:18									#8
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The same can be said for punishing the leader with diseases, if diseases are included then it should be a fair spread, except if the leader has 2x the population of the 2nd place player. However it would still be an annoying feature to me.

The thing about the tech tree is that however many branches there are, there is still a clear leader. Like there isnt one leader in military branch and another in governments, it just doesnt pay enough to go one way. Thats mostly due to the clear ladder system of governments, where it gives too much benefit for reaching the next gov.

	08-03-2004 21:37									#9
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I think I would try it once or twice and back to normal.

But that's just my opinion. I know form other's that they hardly ever use random events as they can be to unbalancing.

	08-03-2004 21:54									#10
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Don’t panic about un eropted volcanos , eroping volcanos and impact sites the graphics are alredy done and siting on my hard disk

	09-03-2004 00:20									#11
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ok remember, these random events dont have to be dramatic. They can be simple things like halfed production for 1 turn
or halfed food income in neighboring cities for 2 turns etc etc

Not only this they will be random (alot of CTP2 and any civ game is random and about luck as it is) if you seen your greatest apponent loose a fleet at see due to heavy stormy climate in that area
Or watched a better opponent (more technologically advanced than you) have a nuclear bomb test go wrong and have riots in some cities.
Just think how satisfying it will be, it would open up a whole new door in strategies.

More so, looking now i named this thread incorrectly, as its not just disasters, this will also be random events in YOUR benefit
Say serveyors have recently found a new source of high quality gold next to city "x" (or due to recent geological activity) watever take your pick

These things happen in real life and have done through the years, they would also add SO! much to gameplay its untrue (and realism may i add)
I think its just something to be to be ignored (another aspect in which CTP2 can be made far superior to other Civ games)

This can be made balanced, and can be made so its not just an annoyance (of course its gunna be annoying if a city is hit by a large earthquake and you lose 1 population)
then again its gunna be good when you stumble upon that newly found diamond deposit or watch a close by enemy loose a farm tile improvement due to hurricane winds.

Well what else can i say for now

-SMIFFGIG

	09-03-2004 02:31									#12
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yes sounds good could be an idea to have them on a slide bar

bad to good

none to loads

	10-03-2004 04:26									#13
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Yes i think its the scale of impact that people are worrying about, not so much that they could be in the game.
I dont mind them at all(i like Cradle for having them), i find they add a small amount of atmosphere to the game(i'm talking about other games that have used them as well). A sliding scale on the world creation screen sounds cool if it could be done

If they are done in the proper balanced way they can enhance a game, a bit like having a cut-scene or wonder movie......

	10-03-2004 11:04									#14
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Caution is needed here. If the disaster is bad enough or happens at a bad time then this is just a case of reaching for the re-load button. In CRADLE the disease thing was so frequent that in the end it annoyed the hell out of me and I simply refused to accept it. RELOAD yet again.

If you are going to have bad things happen then this must be offset by some good things as well. For example, if a volcano goes off nearby and destroys this that and the the other a new resource/trade good or whatever could appear to ease the pain.

This is not really as un-realistic as it may sound. Take a look at Indonesia. The volcanic soils in Java are so rich that they can support three crops per year.

	10-03-2004 13:52									#15
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When I tried to implement the volcano via slic I made it so a volcano was surrounded by a super grass land which was rich in production, food and comers simulating reality. What we would have to do however is to pre setup the eruption dates so that the reload does not work and the disaster happens anyway.

	10-03-2004 15:36									#16
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I'm not sure about pre-arranged disasters(unless in a scenario)........and in Cradle i just used to think that well it was 3500bc, and my size 7 cities(70,000 inhabitants) were asking for trouble in their unsanitary living conditions

But yes this feature needs to be dealt with carefuly, having the player choose to have them in the game or not, and the scale of them(like when you choose the level of barbarians in the game) would seem a good way to do it i think.

	10-03-2004 15:43									#17
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What is then the point of having those events at all? If you are being hit, (like vulcano) and you receive at the same time a 'goodie', why even bother about it?

OK, it would add a bit of 'reallity' into it, but still not sure, if it is worth the 'extra' work.

To implement it, some programmers need to change the code in a lot of places, so I am not sure, if it is worth in the moment. There are, at least for me, far more important issues, like AI-improvements, map-creation and similar.

And as CoT said:

quote: Yes i think its the scale of impact that people are worrying about, not so much that they could be in the game.

That is, I think, what most people are really concerned about.

I don't know if you folks know Populos. There you were able to send the disasters by yourself, provided you had enough Mana, that could be a nice feature

Gilgamensch trying to remember where is his copy so that he could play again

	10-03-2004 16:15									#18
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Gilgamensch wrote

quote: I don't know if you folks know Populos. There you were able to send the disasters by yourself, provided you had enough Mana, that could be a nice feature

Pixies and cloud cities could also be a cool feature

Anyway as i said this thread should really be the "random events thread"

There could be some (VERY RARE) large disasters, that have a global impact (discussion on this is needed)
But also some very large and very rare events that have a positive impact

Things like meteors landing on earth could cause radial damage for a forseeable short term. But in the long term dispersed gold deposits could be found at its crash site (as does happen, gold being from outer space anyway, as it is impossible to be actually created ON earth)

things like this
when this is balanced, this will be a great feature

	10-03-2004 16:27									#19
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quote: There could be some (VERY RARE) large disasters, that have a global impact (discussion on this is needed) But also some very large and very rare events that have a positive impact

And how do you want to determine the place to crush?

Now imagine that the meteor would for example hit the center of your empire and destroy your 3-4 core-cities, you are gone, whipped out, destroyed, annihilated, .........

	10-03-2004 16:34									#20
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What about a really hard substance in the meteorite

	10-03-2004 16:49									#21
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Well in the case of volcanoes you know what you are getting into

When you get to the modern age you could have the chance to deflect it with nukes or failing that your sdi deafens could have a pop

	10-03-2004 17:15									#22
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or even a wonder that automatically grants all your cities immunity to meteors/comets (possibly other disasters too)

earthquakes could be prevented in the late game with a tech advance (that allows you to build more durable buildings)

Volcanos could be prevented early on, by simply not building near areas with tell tails signs that they may errupt into a volcano (% chance on it will ever erupt or not)
However volcano sites would have very rich lands around them, so you take the gamble at your own risk

	10-03-2004 17:27									#23
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well the un erupted volcano tile is different to conventional mountains so you are an idiot if you don't see it coming

	10-03-2004 17:28									#24
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quote: Originally posted by SMIFFGIG or even a wonder that automatically grants all your cities immunity to meteors/comets (possibly other disasters too) earthquakes could be prevented in the late game with a tech advance (that allows you to build more durable buildings) Volcanos could be prevented early on, by simply not building near areas with tell tails signs that they may errupt into a volcano (% chance on it will ever erupt or not) However volcano sites would have very rich lands around them, so you take the gamble at your own risk

Tell tails sign...........that's a good one Mother nature put them there, or the lord himself? Or the lords layer?????

The BIG question is as well, can we teach the AI to handle it properly? In the moment I would say no, so just opening another door for exploit for the human.........

	10-03-2004 17:59									#25
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Simple just tell the ai never to settle within 4 tiles of a volcano that way the volcano never threatens the city.

	10-03-2004 18:03									#26
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I'd say that for the most part, I dislike these ideas.

Random destructive events are counter productive... they annoy the player.

Disease is less annoying, but if its just random, then its something that encourages reloading, even if its avoidable.

How about avoidable, but predictable and (if the situation is bad enough) enevitable disease...

I.E.

As population grows in a city, its pop generate a certain number of disease 'points'. Unhealthy CI's add to this total, and healthy CI's subtract.

The city keeps a running tab (which can't go below zero.)

You'd have levels of disease points that would have effects (which would only happen once each, and only if the total rose, obviously)

125 Penalty to happiness
250 Penalty to food/prod/comm
375 Population loss
500 Penalty to happiness
625 Penalty to food/prod/comm
750 Population loss
875 Penalty to happiness/food/prod/comm
1000 Epidemic

Epidemics can pass disease to other cities via trade routes.

===

Although I've proposed the system... I'm not entirely sure I'd want it in the game... however.

I just wanted to provide some material for you guys to chew on.

	10-03-2004 18:04									#27
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But then he would/could be weaker than the human, as he will just take the risk (maybe).

I know that I am dreaming, BUT so long the AI can't compete all the way with the human, I don't really want to see another exploit. This just sounds to unbalancing to me and maybe even again a greater gain for warmongers, which again suits the human better.

	10-03-2004 18:11									#28
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I tend to agree. I don't see this as a pressing need at all right now.

	10-03-2004 18:12									#29
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I think disease is going to far. but lesser natural disasters like the occasional meteorite far away from anybody’s cities will be good or a volcano erupting at the distant edge of you city is a good and healthy. It makes the map feel like it is alive and that can only be a good thing.

	10-03-2004 18:16									#30
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quote: Originally posted by The Big Mc I think disease is going to far. but lesser natural disasters like the occasional meteorite far away from anybody’s cities will be good or a volcano erupting at the distant edge of you city is a good and healthy. It makes the map feel like it is alive and that can only be a good thing.

Brian Reynolds, the award winning game designer, thinks its a bad thing, however... and I agree with his reasoning... sorry.

I'll dig up the article if you'd like.