10-03-2004 08:10									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Again, losing Bert for 12 games is going to hurt Vancouver, enough.

Hockey is very much a team sport, and I do realize this is going to hurt Vancouver, but what he did hurts Colorado.

Not that it matters, because high-profile players shouldn't get a lighter punishment than no-name players. Consistent, harsh penalties are required -- not ones that are harsh to Jim Beck of the Pittsburgh Penguins and easy on Todd Bertuzi of the Vancouver Canucks...

	10-03-2004 08:12									#62
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I go away for a single year and Imran and the Americans want to **** up hockey!

	10-03-2004 08:18									#63
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quote: Bertuzzi wasn't out to fight the guy, he was out to hurt him. If he had intended to fight him, he would not have smacked him from behind and then jumped on him on the ground already.

It's part of the game. Where retaliation and fighting are accepted 'codes' of the sport. Take that stuff away and don't ***** foot around it.

quote: I go away for a single year and Imran and the Americans want to **** up hockey!

So does Gretzky I take it then?

	10-03-2004 08:22									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It's part of the game. Where retaliation and fighting are accepted 'codes' of the sport. Take that stuff away and don't ***** foot around it.

I don't think you get it. Adding rules won't change the mentality of these hockey players, nor how the game works in North America. If you ban fighting, you're still going to get retaliation. But instead of being in consentual fights, it'll be in hard, questionable hits on somebody unprepared -- something that will be far more prevalent than it is now.

There's nothing wrong with fighting in hockey. If anything, it adds another dynamic to the game with the concept of enforcers. Calgary's Oliwa doesn't score a lot of goals, nor does he set up many plays, but he's a very good enforcer for the team. Same thing with the recently acquired Simon.

By the way, I do agree with you -- it's part of the game.

	10-03-2004 08:23									#65
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quote: Still totally legal.

Was it?

quote: Bertuzzi wasn't out to fight the guy, he was out to hurt him. If he had intended to fight him, he would not have smacked him from behind and then jumped on him on the ground already.

How do you know that he intended to hurt, and not to fight?

quote: Consistent, harsh penalties are required -- not ones that are harsh to Jim Beck of the Pittsburgh Penguins and easy on Todd Bertuzi of the Vancouver Canucks...

Why should they? A player who is a goon, is a goon. Someone like Todd Bertuzzi deserves the benefit of the doubt.

I will remember your remarks should Iginla have the same happen with him.

	10-03-2004 08:25									#66
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Bertuzzi shouldn't get any special treatment just because he's a star player. I think something on par with McSorley's suspension would be fair. If that means no Bert in the playoffs, so be it.

I think the rest of the regular season is a good minimum punishment, and I could accept an argument for the entire post-season as well (it would give us Canucks fans an excuse other than Cloutier for a change). I think an ideal suspension would be until the second round of the playoffs, because 16-19 games are long enough and it doesn't let the team off the hook just because the playoff are starting.

jon.

	10-03-2004 08:25									#67
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Imran:

quote: Take that stuff away and don't ***** foot around it.

And how would you take it out of the game? Make it like basketball, or figure skating on ice?

Hockey is a rough and tumble game, different from Baseball and Football, and Basketball. All of these games have much less physical contact than hockey.

	10-03-2004 08:28									#68
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quote: Adding rules won't change the mentality of these hockey players

'These' is the primary word. Perhaps not 'these' players, but perhaps with future players. And these words were used when American football banned the rough stuff (to stay legal). It was said it wouldn't change the cheap shot mentality of the players... but in a few years it did.

quote: But instead of being in consentual fights, it'll be in hard, questionable hits on somebody unprepared -- something that will be far more prevalent than it is now.

At least that will be a part of the flow of the game. There is nothing wrong with hard hits on players. You shouldn't be unprepared flying down the ice. Hard, clean hitting is ok. Fighting and retalitory slashing is not and should be treated harshly to say this isn't a bush league where you can go nuts and relive "Slap Shot".

quote: If anything, it adds another dynamic to the game with the concept of enforcers.

A utterly useless and boring dynamic? Enforcers are wasted space on the bench.

quote: Was it?

Yes. 100%.

	10-03-2004 08:30									#69
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quote: I think something on par with McSorley's suspension would be fair. If that means no Bert in the playoffs, so be it.

A sucker punch is not the equivalent of swinging your stick.

quote: I think the rest of the regular season is a good minimum punishment, and I could accept an argument for the entire post-season as well (it would give us Canucks fans an excuse other than Cloutier for a change). I think an ideal suspension would be until the second round of the playoffs, because 16-19 games are long enough and it doesn't let the team off the hook just because the playoff are starting.

There have been other examples of this type of sucker punch in the league. None of them received anywhere close to what McSorley did for swinging his stick at the head of Brashear.

I don't think Bert meant to injure, whereas, I could not say the same for McSorley.

That being said, why not a compromise. First two games of the playoffs, given the fact that Bert is the HIGHEST PAID PLAYER of the Vancouver Canucks, and is one of the reasons they have done so well this year.

	10-03-2004 08:30									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Was it?

Yes, the NHL already ruled on it.

quote: How do you know that he intended to hurt, and not to fight?

When you intend to fight, you usually drop your gloves. Even then, you do NOT bean them so hard from behind that you're apt to break their neck...

quote: Why should they? A player who is a goon, is a goon. Someone like Todd Bertuzzi deserves the benefit of the doubt.

I dunno, a goon is somebody who displays goon-like behavior. Calling what Bertuzzi did the act of a "goon" is understating its severity.

quote: I will remember your remarks should Iginla have the same happen with him.

If Iginla ever does that, by all means, don't give him any special treatment.

Although, Iginla is a notoriously well-tempered and polite player. We raise them well in Alberta.

	10-03-2004 08:33									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I don't think Bert meant to injure, whereas, I could not say the same for McSorley.

Give me a break -- why else would you hit somebody so ****ing hard when you know you're a huge guy, if not to intend to hurt them?

	10-03-2004 08:33									#72
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quote: I don't think Bert meant to injure

You're a Vancouver fanboy aren't you? You come up from behind (not even from the front!) pull the jersey, clock him upside the head and then force him onto the ice and there is no intent to injure?! What?!

	10-03-2004 08:34									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi That being said, why not a compromise. First two games of the playoffs, given the fact that Bert is the HIGHEST PAID PLAYER of the Vancouver Canucks, and is one of the reasons they have done so well this year.

That might work... ie, a 15 game suspension (regular season and playoffs). Its a nice, round number and long enough to send a strong message. Through in a hefty fine, and we've got a deal. I am, however, another Canucks fan... I doubt the Avs fans would be so accepting.

	10-03-2004 08:36									#74
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quote: Yes, the NHL already ruled on it.

Players felt Vancouver got a raw deal, given that Naslund was the leading scorer in the league.

quote: When you intend to fight, you usually drop your gloves. Even then, you do NOT bean them so hard from behind that you're apt to break their neck...

"he was slugged in the side of the head by Bertuzzi late in Monday night's game at GM Place. "

Bert's a big player. He gets mad, he can really pummel someone.

quote: I dunno, a goon is somebody who displays goon-like behavior. Calling what Bertuzzi did the act of a "goon" is understating its severity.

Is it? It's not the first, nor will it be the last sucker punch.

	10-03-2004 08:36									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I don't think Bert meant to injure You're a Vancouver fanboy aren't you? You come up from behind (not even from the front!) pull the jersey, clock him upside the head and then force him onto the ice and there is no intent to injure?! What?!

But Imran, God is on Vancouver's side!

	10-03-2004 08:40									#76
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quote: You're a Vancouver fanboy aren't you?

Who's agreed to a 15 game suspension and a hefty fine.

That is a HUGE penalty for a sucker punch, given that this will take out the first three games of the playoffs.

quote: You come up from behind (not even from the front!)

He came from the side.

quote: then force him onto the ice

Momentum carries him over so that he falls. You try slugging someone on the ice, and see how easy it is to keep your balance.

I don't agree with what he did, but I don't think it is fair to demonise Bert, nor that he intended to hurt the other player.

	10-03-2004 08:43									#77
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You're insane.

What was he doing then, if he did not intend to hurt the player he was punching without warning?

	10-03-2004 08:43									#78
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quote: God is on Vancouver's side!

God wouldn't ban Bert, if Bertuzzi agreed to pay for the salary lost by the other player and for the medical treatment caused by his actions, and if he apologised for his actions.

So the league has a different standard of accountability, then God would have.

	10-03-2004 08:45									#79
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quote: That is a HUGE penalty for a sucker punch, given that this will take out the first three games of the playoffs.

Too little. I'd personally have taken him out of the first round the playoffs and an addition 15 games next year.

quote: He came from the side.

Watch it again... he came from behind (I saw it enough on Sportscenter).

quote: I don't think it is fair to demonise Bert, nor that he intended to hurt the other player.

OF COURSE HE DID! If he didn't, he'd come from the front.

	10-03-2004 08:46									#80
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quote: if he did not intend to hurt the player he was punching without warning?

Let's see, your team is down 9-2. Your captain and most skilled player got taken out by your bitter rivals. You can't do anything to rectify the situation, so angry and frusterated, you lash out.

	10-03-2004 08:48									#81
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quote: OF COURSE HE DID! If he didn't, he'd come from the front.

So when you are pissed off, you have time to think things through clearly?

	10-03-2004 08:49									#82
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ok.... so we've all given our opinions on what should happen, what do you folks think the league will do when then discuss it tomorrow?

I think the arbitrary number that Ben and I just came up with seems to be about right for the league, but the hit's gotten a heck of a lot of bad press. Will they suspend him for longer?

	10-03-2004 08:49									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Let's see, your team is down 9-2. Your captain and most skilled player got taken out by your bitter rivals.

"...a month ago..."

quote: You can't do anything to rectify the situation, so angry and frusterated, you lash out.

"...in a blatant attempt to injure a player who took out your captain a month ago in revenge".

	10-03-2004 08:50									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So when you are pissed off, you have time to think things through clearly?

No, but you can still intend to hurt someone without thinking clearly...

	10-03-2004 08:51									#85
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quote: So when you are pissed off, you have time to think things through clearly?

The hit happened weeks ago. Clearly this was premeditated and that is what British Columbia will assert when it brings Bertuzzi up on aggravated assault charges (which they are planning on doing),

What the league WILL do? Probably the rest of the season and the first round of the playoffs.

	10-03-2004 08:53									#86
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BTW, 0-0 at the start of the third of Edmonton vs Calgary is on right now.

	10-03-2004 08:54									#87
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quote: but the hit's gotten a heck of a lot of bad press.

And Vancouver ain't the media darlin's like the Avalanche.

quote: What the league WILL do? Probably the rest of the season and the first round of the playoffs.

That's not that far from the 15 games that jon and I agreed on.

So what's the beef, Imran? Hockey too brutal in general for you?

	10-03-2004 08:55									#88
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Make that 1-0 Calgary.

Nieminen's first goal as a flame.

	10-03-2004 08:55									#89
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quote: Clearly this was premeditated and that is what British Columbia will assert when it brings Bertuzzi up on aggravated assault charges (which they are planning on doing),

If it is premediated, then why have one of the stars on your team take him out? Why not use your goons, who have much less consequences to the team?

	10-03-2004 08:55									#90
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quote: Hockey is a rough and tumble game, different from Baseball and Football, and Basketball. All of these games have much less physical contact than hockey.

When is the last time you saw a Football game? Less physical contact than hockey

quote: So what's the beef, Imran? Hockey too brutal in general for you?

American football is much more brutal. But they don't allow boxing to take center stage. They leave that for the more uncivilized sports.

I'm not the one calling the hit on Naslund to be a 'cheap' shot either.