15-04-2004 20:02									#181
	Tired of ads?

The same goes for me - particularly when its the same battle you're replaying over and over. I prefer to win battles by changing the circumstances under which the enemies meet than whether I put my guns on one ridge or another.

	15-04-2004 20:34									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin No, I have not. I have read that they are good games but I tend to get wary as soon as I read the words Real Time on the back a box.

they have morale, formations, facings, realistic weapons, etc. Dont recall supply rules - at least as realistic as PG2, I think. Reinforcements arrive as per history - no building units in barracks or whatever. Heavy historical research was done. Basically theyre realistic, Grand tactical level, war games. Just happen to be in real time. As much as I know of ACW tactics, theyre realistic - they are NOT Age of Empires for the ACW. (not sure about the Napoleonic versions, which i havent played, but its the same engine)

	15-04-2004 21:10									#183
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark they have morale, formations, facings, realistic weapons, etc. Dont recall supply rules - at least as realistic as PG2, I think. Reinforcements arrive as per history - no building units in barracks or whatever. Heavy historical research was done. Basically theyre realistic, Grand tactical level, war games. Just happen to be in real time. As much as I know of ACW tactics, theyre realistic - they are NOT Age of Empires for the ACW. (not sure about the Napoleonic versions, which i havent played, but its the same engine)

Sounds worth a try, I suppose the LesserDogs house some of them.

	15-04-2004 21:30									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Sounds worth a try, I suppose the LesserDogs house some of them.

At least in the US theyve been available until quite recently in jewel case - including SMG, SMA, and a bonus campaign, Sid Meiers South Mountain (the battles that lead up to Antietam) all for about $10 US, quite a bargain, Id say. Im sure this package is widely available online. The Napoleonics games are more recent and I still see them in bargain bins from time to time. And I think are still available on line.


Whats the retail picture for games like in France?

	15-04-2004 22:40									#185
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Whats the retail picture for games like in France?

Games grouped together are generally sold around 30€, jewell case single games (sold in DVD like boxes in France) are sold around 15€ though a few of them are 10€ only. Special operations can set the price as low as 5€ (this was the cost of Divided Ground and The Operational Art of War 2 when I bought them grouped together) when the shop or the distributors want to get rid off old stocks.

A package like the one you are writing about would certainly be sold around 15€ to 20€.

	16-04-2004 01:09									#186
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I just finished the PG2 British campaign. Metz wasn't hard despite all the fortifications. Long range tank and AT fire followed by infantry attacks dealt with those around Metz. In the north artillery heavily damaged the defending infantry unit and I was able to push tanks in and destroy the supporting artillery. Some of the front line German infantry attacked across the river but I was able to get tanks behind them from the north, destroy their artillery unit and destroy the infantry. In the south a tac bomber and long range fire from a couple of Fireflys destroyed the Panther.

Both FW190Ds attacked artillery units covered by AD and were weakened enough for my Spitfires to destroy. In bringing up artillery to knock out the flak on the airfield the Tiger damaged a recon unit but my tanks again proved strong enough to kill it easily. By this stage all 5 had leaders as did both my tac bombers.

I did get a nasty shock when the Me262 turned up on the turn after I captured the airfield and the indicator said 6-2 in their favour if my fighters attacked. Fortunately I had enough artillery and ground units in range of the central VH to take it immediately with 3 turns to spare for a BV and avoid having to deal with the Messerschmitt.

That gained me a prototype Centurion tank and about 2500 prestige for Dessau. I bought a recon and spent most of the rest on overstrengthing absolutely everything.

At Dessau my northern group made easy progress to the airfield with small groups picking off all the small flags on the way. In the south it is tough at first and I used most of my aircraft here to help the ground units. After taking out the German 10.5's mopping up the rest proved fairly straightforward. The Do335 turned up and my best Spitfire (strength 12) shot it down in one attack - great stuff! The Me163 appeared next turn and the same Spitfire took that out in one go, being reduced to strength 7 but gaining a leader in the process. Then it rained for 3 consecutive turns. Quite useful as it turned out as the rest of the Luftwaffe could not attack and I was able to resupply and position all my ground units for their next attacks and reinforce the damaged Spitfire.

In the south the Germans had little left apart from some flak, easily taken out with artillery support and both VH's captured. In the north the King Tigers on the airfield gave a little trouble when the rain stopped and they spotted my units and attacked. My tanks took some damage but finished them off and artillery and airstrikes weakened the infantry left on the airfield enough to capture that. I then had a stroke of luck as the FW190 flew straight into a Spitfire I had parked next to the airfield to resupply and took 9 points damage and an AD finished it off next turn. A 7.2" gun and a tac bomber took out the fH18 next to Dessau and 2 artillery and an airstrike took out the Volkssturm on the VH next turn so my unit was able to walk in and take a final BV on the last turn.

Short but interesting to try something I was not familiar with, unlike the Blitz campaign. Overall a bit too easy with 5 BVs out of 6 scenarios - mainly due to the generous amounts of prestige available, a fault this shares with the British Western Europe campaign in AG.

Time to go and download something a little more challenging I think.

	16-04-2004 16:39									#187
	Inflate your Upload Space

i looked at some of those other games and the screen shots are a big turn off. i'm certainly going to try them but i hope those games which use symbols can be modded with better graphics or have an options to use graphics. i mean it's almost like some war games want there to be a learning curve. why can't they just all have unit graphics like pg?

maybe the 5 star series is just different than most war games and i really don't like war games afterall. pg is great where everything is easy to recognize and the info bar gives you everything in writing instead of pictures/etc which you have to memorize.

	16-04-2004 17:51									#188
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pg, few PC wargames have units like the 5 stars serie games, the games from Talonsoft are displaying animated units a bit like the 5 stars games and Close Combat as most real time games also uses animations.

But you should not overlook Strategic Command because it is not graphically on par with most of the games we know, this is a wonderfull simple and yet entertaining game.

	16-04-2004 18:37									#189
	Increase Your PM Length

IIRC TOAW gives you the choice of symbols or PG style images, though i dont think theyre animated. And im not sure it would be your cup of tea.


The wargame market is limited, and thus any given one will have limited sales - whats a disappointing sales figure for a FPS or RTS is a big hit in the wargame market. This means they cant afford the same resources. So it tends to be an issue of chrome versus gameplay and research, and most wargamers are willing to sacrifice chrome. The symbols are standard NATO symbols, which are used in many military histories and maps, and are familiar to many of us from board war game days.

Perhaps we should list wargames that are high in chrome??? I'd suggest Sid Meiers Gettysburg, if youre at all interested in the era. If you mainly are interested in WW2 then the Talonsoft games (the Campaign Series) and MS' Close Combat Series may be the way to go.

	17-04-2004 20:50									#190
	Tired of ads?

You guys might want to pass on SC2.

Believe it or not, from what I could find out, it will require sky-high computer system requirements.

Although it is a turn-based game, and the screenshots look similar to Civ II maps, it will require a mega machine to run.

So unless you have a fairly new computer, it will cost you mega bucks for an upgrade to run this game.

	18-04-2004 04:04									#191
	Inflate your Upload Space

This is what a moderator posted in the SC2 forum :

quote: I guess this would be a question I need to answer Ok, not sure how we got into astronomical spec numbers here, but the base system that I have been using for minimum requirement testing is a 500 Mhz CPU, with 16 MB Video Card and 128 MB of RAM, so anything around there should be fine. Note: this is on Windows 9x/ME systems as 2000/XP systems require a little more than that by default... well XP does for sure! Hope this helps, Hubert

It seems that no one will have to change his computer in order to play SC2.

	18-04-2004 16:37									#192
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heh, i don't value graphics at all. i've played many hours in rogue like games that just use ascii graphics. it's just wargames seem like they don't display information very well(PG does though imo). i'll report back after i play some other wargames(might be a few months though).

	19-04-2004 18:39									#193
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OK, Im working my way through the blitz campaign, playing fair (IE 100 perstige)

Im stuck at Lillehammer/Sedan. I cant seem to win Sedan going in with just 1000 prestige, and I have trouble coming out of Lillerhammer with more than 1000 prestige and all core units intact.

Right now Im not so much focusing on a better Sedan strategy as a better Lillehammer one. I go into Lille with 3 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 bomber, one recon, and a whole bunch of armor.

The challenge at Lillerhammer is getting through the towns that block the way up each side of the fjord, so the one thing I DONT need is more armor, since that tend to get stuck on the road to the south, especially in the west. (another problem is that alot of my armor is PzIIIE, which are mainly good against hardtargets. I can upgrade them to IVD, but that takes a bunch of prestige points, depending on how many I upgrade). Ive tried adding two artillery units - to give a total of 3, one on the west side, and two on the east. Ive tried adding more air, but that gets frustrating when the weather goes bad. I had some good results with Fallschirm, using them against the artillery unit in the town east of the fjord. But I made the mistake of then sending them north, instead of east against the small town on the east edge of the map. Since they are moving by foot, they were essentially wasted.

Im thinking the best mix on the west side may be one armor, one infantry, and two artillery. Use everything else on the east side, including a fallschirm. Not sure if I have enought prestige - it might be worth reassigning one armor unit.

	19-04-2004 19:54									#194
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Did you sell your original infantry?

I usually have 2 pionere, 3 SS, and 1 bridge. You will want the pionere for the west side. After you hit with 1-2 artillery the pionere should at least be able to force a retreat so you can go in with the tank and overrun.

I'll have to try that campaign again so I can make note of what I buy. I just finished running through the PeG version of the campaign which is a bit different!

	19-04-2004 21:35									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Garth Vader Did you sell your original infantry?

Dont remember.

Honey, I lost the infantry!!!!!

	20-04-2004 02:42									#196
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Lillehammer - In the west I would deploy one artillery (fH 18)and 2 infantry (stosstruppen) in the northern deployment hexes and 2 tanks (PzIIIE), a recon and an AD near the supply hex on the south edge of the map. Put the fH18 so it can move to 3 hexes from the Norwegian position on the first turn. Move the infantry right up behind it in transport and then forward on foot on turn 2 so that you have one right next to the Norwegians, one behind it and the artillery behind that. Your air units (I would only have 1 Me109E and 1 JU87B) strike on the east side of the map on turn 1 and fly west (position them so they can bomb then move on turn 2) so they can spot the artillery north of the norwegian infantry on turn 2 and your artillery can hit it. I find that usually the southernmost infantry will attack and take damage then move back so you can push your forward infantry into the town and destroy the other norwegian unit with a combination of artillery and airstrikes then infantry assault. If anything retreats your tanks push through and finish it off.

In the east I would have one fH18, a Pionere and a couple of PzIIIE plus a recon and an AD with maybe a couple of other units (I usually have a prototype by then, often a sIG 1B from Madrid). Drop a fallschirm behind the artillery and just keep pushing hard, initially with the tanks to reduce the defenders entrenchment. Once you break through everything but the fallschirm drives NW. Tanks to the north of the lake, artillery, infantry and recon to the south. Artillery and tanks take the airfield (you should have the western airfield too by this stage so the British fighter can no longer resupply or repair damage) and your artillery sits on the shore of the lake where it can reach Lillehammer. Squeeze from both sides with as much artillery and airpower as you can manage.

The fallschirm march east to block any norwegian advance from the village in that direction. If you have enough prestige for a second fallschirm then drop it on the village in the NE.

You cannot afford all the units you need for Sedan to start with. You must overrun as many flags as possible to get the prestige to buy units as you go. You will need 2 fighters and 2 Stukas to start. The Stukas hit the 2 artillery units behind Sedan. I would buy a third recon to mop up the flags in the centre of the map.

Sedan takes practice. IIRC I did summarise the basic plan I use in the AAR I did earlier in this thread.

(Edited to correct my poor geography!)

Last edited by CerberusIV on 20-04-2004 at 13:58

	20-04-2004 18:32									#197
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Lillehammer - In the west I would deploy one artillery (fH 18)and 2 infantry (stosstruppen) in the northern deployment hexes and 2 tanks (PzIIIE), a recon and an AD near the supply hex on the south edge of the map. Put the fH18 so it can move to 3 hexes from the Norwegian position on the first turn. Move the infantry right up behind it in transport and then forward on foot on turn 2 so that you have one right next to the Norwegians, one behind it and the artillery behind that. Your air units (I would only have 1 Me109E and 1 JU87B) strike on the east side of the map on turn 1 and fly west (position them so they can bomb then move on turn 2) so they can spot the artillery north of the norwegian infantry on turn 2 and your artillery can hit it. I find that usually the southernmost infantry will attack and take damage then move back so you can push your forward infantry into the town and destroy the other norwegian unit with a combination of artillery and airstrikes then infantry assault. If anything retreats your tanks push through and finish it off. In the east I would have one fH18, a Pionere and a couple of PzIIIE plus a recon and an AD with maybe a couple of other units (I usually have a prototype by then, often a sIG 1B from Madrid). Drop a fallschirm behind the artillery and just keep pushing hard, initially with the tanks to reduce the defenders entrenchment. Once you break through everything but the fallschirm drives NW. Tanks to the north of the lake, artillery, infantry and recon to the south. Artillery and tanks take the airfield (you should have the western airfield too by this stage so the British fighter can no longer resupply or repair damage) and your artillery sits on the shore of the lake where it can reach Lillehammer. Squeeze from both sides with as much artillery and airpower as you can manage. The fallschirm march east to block any norwegian advance from the village in that direction. If you have enough prestige for a second fallschirm then drop it on the village in the NE. You cannot afford all the units you need for Sedan to start with. You must overrun as many flags as possible to get the prestige to buy units as you go. You will need 2 fighters and 2 Stukas to start. The Stukas hit the 2 artillery units behind Sedan. I would buy a third recon to mop up the flags in the centre of the map. Sedan takes practice. IIRC I did summarise the basic plan I use in the AAR I did earlier in this thread. (Edited to correct my poor geography!)

I dont think i have the prestige/units needed for the above going into Lillehammer. I may have to go back and start over in Madrid.

	20-04-2004 18:49									#198
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Does anyone know how to take screenshots in Panzer General II? I tried the Print Screen and paste to Paintshop Pro, but I get a garbled image.

	20-04-2004 19:17									#199
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Does anyone know how to take screenshots in Panzer General II? I tried the Print Screen and paste to Paintshop Pro, but I get a garbled image.

I suppose that it is because your PG2 picture is reduced so it fits the Paint Shop pro window. Enlarge your picture to 100% (if possible) and copy the part you are interested in so you can paste it in a new file.

	20-04-2004 20:43									#200
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I dont think i have the prestige/units needed for the above going into Lillehammer. I may have to go back and start over in Madrid.

You should not be losing any core units at Madrid or Poland so unless Suomussalmi went badly wrong ordinary victories on the first 3 scenarios should allow the units I have mentioned. (All your main infantry and artillery should be in half tracks by now too. No trucks)

It's a bit of a cheat but I would run through the first 3 scenarios and send you a save for the start of Lillehammer if you wish. That way you can at least try Lillehammer, and Sedan, with a decent army rather than slogging through the first scenarios again. Unless you want the practice.

	20-04-2004 21:47									#201
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV You should not be losing any core units at Madrid or Poland so unless Suomussalmi went badly wrong ordinary victories on the first 3 scenarios should allow the units I have mentioned. (All your main infantry and artillery should be in half tracks by now too. No trucks) It's a bit of a cheat but I would run through the first 3 scenarios and send you a save for the start of Lillehammer if you wish. That way you can at least try Lillehammer, and Sedan, with a decent army rather than slogging through the first scenarios again. Unless you want the practice.

I clearly need the practice.

	20-04-2004 21:49									#202
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark tamerlin: The owners of this site do not allow links to the above site. Please edit your post, so this thread does not get deleted.

In your Madrid (above AAR) you lost no core units, and req'd a bomber. How many prestige points did you end up with?

	20-04-2004 22:52									#203
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Tamerlin, no it's not that. I use the "paste as new image option" and it sets the size depending on what is in the clipboard.

	20-04-2004 22:56									#204
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Also, does anyone know how AI line of sight is calculated? I swear, sometimes it can see everything and once I had the same recon run into the same infantry guy (and get surprised! and damaged) five times. It would get damaged, go couple sqares back, refit and back again. Obviously AI cheats but I can't see a pattern.

	20-04-2004 23:07									#205
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark In your Madrid (above AAR) you lost no core units, and req'd a bomber. How many prestige points did you end up with?

I just did Madrid again. Requisitioning a JU87 cost most of the initial 500 prestige. I rushed it a bit and didn't play particularly well. In consequence all 3 German infantry units took damage and I had to take replacements for the Pionere and one regular. That ate into the amount of prestige I would otherwise have had.

I got a BV with a turn to spare, destroying all but 2 Republican infantry and taking every flag on the map. I finished with 1580 victory points and got a sIG 1B prototype.

That was enough prestige to give all 3 infantry units half tracks, PzII to PzIIIE, Ps222 to Ps231 and upgrade the artillery to a fH 18 with a half track. I also bought a PzIIIE and a Me109e and had 68 prestige left.

With that to use, Poland should be straightforward.

One of the few weaknesses of the campaign play in PG2 is that if you make a good start the rest of the campaign is much easier than if you start poorly and have to struggle to regain momentum. I've never been sent to Thermopylae (and am not interested in trying!).

	20-04-2004 23:13									#206
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Also, does anyone know how AI line of sight is calculated? I swear, sometimes it can see everything and once I had the same recon run into the same infantry guy (and get surprised! and damaged) five times. It would get damaged, go couple sqares back, refit and back again. Obviously AI cheats but I can't see a pattern.

I've never seen the PG2 AI do anything but play honest (unlike Civ3!!).

2 possibilities. Did the infantry have a leader giving it Forest Camouflage? (Not that I have ever seen this particular leader - it is one of the rare ones). More likely a pathing problem where the AI wanted to move past your unit but the pathing kept running it into the unit even though it could "see" it.

Working the AI spotting range is one of my key techniques and I regularly use it to sucker enemy air units onto AD's that are just out of sight. If the AI cheated you would never surprise it, yet it does happen fairly regularly.

	21-04-2004 00:24									#207
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV I just did Madrid again. Requisitioning a JU87 cost most of the initial 500 prestige. I rushed it a bit and didn't play particularly well. In consequence all 3 German infantry units took damage and I had to take replacements for the Pionere and one regular. That ate into the amount of prestige I would otherwise have had. I got a BV with a turn to spare, destroying all but 2 Republican infantry and taking every flag on the map. I finished with 1580 victory points and got a sIG 1B prototype. That was enough prestige to give all 3 infantry units half tracks, PzII to PzIIIE, Ps222 to Ps231 and upgrade the artillery to a fH 18 with a half track. I also bought a PzIIIE and a Me109e and had 68 prestige left.

Interesting, I did Madrid, bought a JU87 never took replacements, took all the squares in a BV and left 1 or 2 infantry and I got a PzIVD proto and had 1580 to spend as well.

	21-04-2004 01:08									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Garth Vader Interesting, I did Madrid, bought a JU87 never took replacements, took all the squares in a BV and left 1 or 2 infantry and I got a PzIVD proto and had 1580 to spend as well.

It is because of the "Jensen's cap".
It is explained in detail on PG2 forums here.
Basically, the value of your army cannot exceed the maximum value set by campaign designer (this is so-called Jensen's cap). If the total value of your army (sum of all equipment costs) + unspent prestige exceed the cap, you will not get a full award for the victory. One exception is that starting core units and prototypes do not count against the cap.

Example:
total army value = 1800
prestige = 200
cap for next scenario = 3000
victory award = 1000
Next scenario you will end end up with (200+1000)=1200 prestige.

But suppose that your
total army value = 2300
In this case you should end up with 1200 prestige, but you won't, because it will put you above the cap: (2300+200+1000=3500) exceed the cap value by 500, so you will only get an award of 1000-500=500 for your victory, and will end up with 200+500=700 prestige.

What this implies is that spending your 200 prestige on replacements in the above scenario is "free": it won't change the value of your army and you will get "reimbursed" because of the higher effective victory award.

Ie, in the above example
spend 200 on replacements
total army value is still 2300
2300+1000 (for victory) = 3300 exceed cap by 300, so your victory award is (1000-300)=700
You still end up with 700 prestige.

Another thing: as prototypes/starting core units do not count against the cap (they contribute zero to your total army value), upgrading them may be "free" in the long run, as you will be compensated for the upgrade cost by receiuving a higher victory award next scenario.

A bit twisted, I know, but this is how it works

	21-04-2004 01:32									#209
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

thanks this tells me what i should shoot for.

	21-04-2004 01:47									#210
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV I've never seen the PG2 AI do anything but play honest (unlike Civ3!!).

I find this impossible. You never had a situation where you attack an enemy fighter with your own, get yours badly damaged, then retreating your fighter somwhere in the middle of nowhere only to have enemy fighter trace it and kill it?

Enemy airplanes are actually the most cheating units, their bombers and fighters all the time simply know that you have a trucked artillery within their flying (but not spotting) range and they act accordingly. But not always. That is why I said it cheats but I can't see the pattern, when it does and when it does not.

2 possibilities. Did the infantry have a leader giving it Forest Camouflage?[/QUOTE]

No, I suppose it was a pathing error like you said.

[QOUTE]Working the AI spotting range is one of my key techniques and I regularly use it to sucker enemy air units onto AD's that are just out of sight. If the AI cheated you would never surprise it, yet it does happen fairly regularly. [/QUOTE]

What is the spotting range of deployed artillery? 2 hexes, right? I had enemy artillery spotting (and shooting) stuff 4 hexes away all by itself. How is that possible?