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ErikM
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No, PG2 AI really does not cheat. If you kill AI reckons and keep your units out of AI visibility range, they will run their units into yours (getting a "surprise!" attack) all the time. It is easy to verify it - start Suomassalmi scenario as Russians and AI will kill a half of its army on the first turn.
In some scenarios, to help the AI, designers place AI "observation bunkers" in some far away places and would give them a spotting range of, say, 40. This will basically give AI a full map knowledge. But this is not an AI cheat - it is rather a scenario designer cheat. And I don't think any of SSI scenarios actually uses this.
AFAIK, AI can request elite replacements for its damaged units for free. And possibly it gets some extra prestige in some circumstances. Other then that, AI does not cheat.
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VetLegion
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OK, I think I have one. I'm attaching the save file. It is the autosave, just press the end turn button and see my fighter in the north get killed. It is 2 AM here but I have looked hard and as far as I can figure it out, my fighter should be invisible to all. How does it get killed then?
 Attachment: salfight.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).
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VetLegion
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Spotting range of Spitfire is 2 AFAIR, so it shouldn't be able to see it by itself. There is a ranger infantry to the left (range 3) but it is even further away. There are few enemy units south, none with enough range to see my fighter. I also scouted around with the other plane to see if there are any ships near or something, and there are none.
ErikM, I have version 1.02 I believe (how can I check for sure?). Which one are you using? I presume you haven't moved other units around, since that may change the priority for the Spiftire.
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CerberusIV
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The version number shows up in the bottom left corner of the initial screen IIRC.
Does the Spitfire have a leader that increases its spotting range?
It could be that the AI is moving the Spitfire past where your fighter is (but not through the hex so no "Out of the sun") and chooses to shoot it when it blunders across it. That would explain why it doesn't always do so. The AI does seem to move air units randomly at times. The Russian fighters at Suomussalmi spend a lot of time out of sight towards the southern edge of the map for no apparent reason.
To be fair I think I have occasionally seen AI units that I should not have and maybe that works both ways but it is certainly very random if it does happen (some bug?)
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VetLegion
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quote:
Originally posted by CerberusIV
The version number shows up in the bottom left corner of the initial screen IIRC.
Does the Spitfire have a leader that increases its spotting range? |
No.
I have checked my version and it is 1.02, but as far as I recall, not 1.02G or any of the player patches.
quote:
It could be that the AI is moving the Spitfire past where your fighter is (but not through the hex so no "Out of the sun") and chooses to shoot it when it blunders across it. That would explain why it doesn't always do so. |
Ah, you may be on the money with this. We would have to know does AI have that kind of coding, or does it just remain stuck if it runs into something. I can't say from expirience.
I have seen some AI behaviour like that which could not be explained by coding. For example, a fighter may go after my damaged fighter as it can see the general direction I am heading, but it can't know if my fighter took a turn which planes do due to the nature of hex movement. So, it would be pretty pointless to implement a "pursuit" code in AI.
Anyway, I am just speculating. This game has been out for 7 years and played to death too, so if it is player consensus that AI doesn't cheat, I am inclined to believe so. I've seen it preform some pretty weird stuff, but it may be my imagination, plus coincidence... I don't know.
quote:
To be fair I think I have occasionally seen AI units that I should not have and maybe that works both ways but it is certainly very random if it does happen (some bug?) |
I see units I shouldn't all the time. A bit like in Civ really, sometimes you get to see stuff supposedly under fog of war 
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CerberusIV
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
Tried again and got the 1580 points with units intact. BUT forgot to save when Poland first came up, hit the wrong button, and lost my chance to upgrade. DAMN this interface!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why cant it give me the chance to save when a scenario ends, before it opens the next one????????????? |
The system I use for pg2 is a save (HEADQUARTERS) as soon as I reach the screen between scenarios, a save (DEPLOYMENT) once I have upgraded, etc and am ready to start the next one, a save (START) once I have deployed and named my units and another save (RUNNING) which I take from time to time whilst a scenario is running. It is just getting into the habit of a system like this.
Coming back to the Blitz campaign, I decided to play further to maximise what I could get under the prestige cap. After 3 BV's I had 14 units, including one prototype, and 828 prestige going into Lillehammer. I used most of it to buy 3 more units.
The attack in the west went exactly as I outlined above. My artillery inflicted 5 damage on the Norwegian artillery and with a Me109 overhead the AI could only bring it back to 7. The southernmost infantry attacked my lead infantry, which received supporting artillery fire, inflicted and received no damage and wandered off northwards! So I can now advance a unit and unhinge the Norwegian position.
In the east it got rather strange. I attacked the easternmost infantry with 2 PzIIIE to reduce its entrenchment. The western one advanced and attacked my recon unit (never had that before!). With 2 artillery units shooting it took damage 5, suppression 5 and got blown away next turn. My Stuka hit the Norwegian artillery then a fallschirm drop destroyed it. That allowed a tank behind the eastern infantry and that is now toast. Panzers roll!
I did find the advice in one of Whoopy Cat's articles linked above about including something in the unit name to identify it as a free unit very helpful. Now I know which units not to risk losing!
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ErikM
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quote:
Originally posted by VetLegion
I have checked my version and it is 1.02, but as far as I recall, not 1.02G or any of the player patches.
quote:
It could be that the AI is moving the Spitfire past where your fighter is (but not through the hex so no "Out of the sun") and chooses to shoot it when it blunders across it. That would explain why it doesn't always do so. |
Ah, you may be on the money with this. We would have to know does AI have that kind of coding, or does it just remain stuck if it runs into something. I can't say from expirience.
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Ok, I've got intrigued 
I did my test using 1.02G patch, and your fighter does not get attacked. In vanilla 1.02, Spitfire indeed flies next to your fighter and trashes it.
So I watched it a bit more carefully.
The difference between 1.02 and 1.02G is that in 1.02G planes do not have zones of control. In other words, the flight path does not get interrupted if a plane moves through the hexes adjacent to your own plane.
So in 1.02G British Spitfire flies to bomb your PzIVG tank at (28,29). This tank is within the spotting range of the british infantry in a city next to it. In fact, this Pz is almost the only unit within the AI visibility range, and AI diligently moves to bomb it before attacking it with a Sherman. It is also easy to see that the shortest flight path towards (28,29) goes through the hex adjacent to your damaged Me109.
So in 1.02G Spitfire flies to the target undeterred by Me zone of control and bombs PzIVG; in 1.02 it is stopped by you fighter ZoC. Since your fighter is badly damaged, Spitfire decides to attack it.
Fair and square!
This being said, I agree that sometimes your units spot something that they should not due to some bug(s) and possibly it is the same for the AI, which might explain some mysterious attacks. But it really does not happen often, and I tend to save and reload when I spot some "bonus" hexes which seems to fix the problem.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Garth Vader
Did you sell your original infantry?
I usually have 2 pionere, 3 SS, and 1 bridge. You will want the pionere for the west side. After you hit with 1-2 artillery the pionere should at least be able to force a retreat so you can go in with the tank and overrun.
I'll have to try that campaign again so I can make note of what I buy. I just finished running through the PeG version of the campaign which is a bit different! |
OK, Ive been through Madrid pretty thoroughly now, you only get 3 core infantry there, so unless you buy some more infantry along the way, thats all you will have at Lillehammer. Ive been playing through as suggested above, picking up only a bomber at Madrid. I splurged and bought a fighter and a couple of armor at Poland.
Im not going into Finland with, lets see, 3 infantry (2 pioneer and a reg, I think) i upgraded recon, 1 fighter, 1 bomber, 3 armor, and 1 upgraded, tracked, artillery.
2 of the armor are the anti-infantry type (PzIVC?) and the other is PzIIIE. Two of the infantry are tracked, I think. I have about 1200 points.
What now?
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ErikM
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
OK, Ive been through Madrid pretty thoroughly now, you only get 3 core infantry there, so unless you buy some more infantry along the way, thats all you will have at Lillehammer. Ive been playing through as suggested above, picking up only a bomber at Madrid. I splurged and bought a fighter and a couple of armor at Poland.
Im not going into Finland with, lets see, 3 infantry (2 pioneer and a reg, I think) i upgraded recon, 1 fighter, 1 bomber, 3 armor, and 1 upgraded, tracked, artillery.
2 of the armor are the anti-infantry type (PzIVC?) and the other is PzIIIE. Two of the infantry are tracked, I think. I have about 1200 points.
What now? |
I would not go armor-heavy in first scenarios since early German armor is rather crappy and you will end up wasting prestige on upgrading them later on. A priority in early scenarios is (i) infantry - once you get to Russia (or North Africa), inexperienced infantry will be next to useless and (ii) artillery - as they gain experience slowly. Tanks pick experience rather fast.
In Madrid I'd buy a bomber. If you get a BV there, you'll get a prototype, PzIVD if you are lucky.
In Poland: upgrade your tank and reckon. Buy:
one-two tanks (PzIVC and PzIIIE - skip IVC if you got IVD as a prototype)
another reckon
15cm gun
a fighter
maybe a paratrooper
I think there should be enough prestige for all of that.
In Norway:
another gun
PzIVD if prestige allows
and maybe upgrade something; if tanks you have bought in Poland do not have much experience, sell them and buy PzIVDs instead.
In Finland:
Personally, I always stock up on Finnish ski infantry. They move 5 hexes without any trucks, are cheap, and have great combat stats. What's not to like?
So at the very least you should have at this stage
~6 infantry
3-4 tanks
3 guns
2 reckons
a fighter
a bomber
Should be more than enough.
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Garth Vader
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Saskatoon, SK, CA
Oct 1999
time: 22:34
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Ok, I took some notes so here goes:
I bought a bomber in madrid
Got a IVD prototype and 1580 prestige
Before Poland I
Upgraded Recon
Upgraded both regular infantry to SS
Upgraded arty
Upgraded IIA to 38t
Bought bf109
Bought arty 15sfh18
Got a BV
Before Finland I now have 1308 prestige
Bought Bridge Infantry
Bought Pionere Infantry
Bought recon
Bought Arty
Bought IIIE
Overstrengthed with leftover
Got a BV
Have 588 prestige for lillihammer
Bought a bf109
Overstrengthed with the rest
For lillihammer my west group was
1 arty
IVD and 38t tanks
recon
Pionere and SS infantry
East group was
2 arty
IIIE tank
recon
Pionere, SS and bridge infantry
I don't remember turn numbers of when stuff happened, but basic plan was:
East group:
Move both arty in range of their arty. Hit it twice for the kill.
Hit remaining infantry with arty and finish off with tank, SS and pionere.
Split recon, bridge and 1 arty to take out 2 infantry on far east side, use recon to take town in NE.
Move remaining units north to take the airfield.
West group:
Move arty up in range of the town and put IVD in lead position right next to town. (Note: I forgot to scout area with air first or else I would have put Arty in range of their arty)
They attacked with infantry not in town and pulled it back.
I got lucky here and weather cleared so I could hit their arty with bomber, hit their town with my arty, moved lead tank up to spot where their infantry pulled out from and hit town, moved next tank up and hit town, their infantry retreats from town. Pull recon into town and hit arty.
At this point it's just a matter of moving arty up, hitting a unit and/or bombing it and finishing it off with tanks. My infantry only caught up when I got to the final city.
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CerberusIV
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I am beginning to realise what the cap in PG2 does. I completed Lillehammer (BV) and had 700 prestige going into Sedan. Also a prototype JU87D - very convenient as I would have requisitioned a JU87B otherwise.
I spent it all on units and overstrengthing and attacked at Sedan with exactly 0 prestige. I took replacements where necessary, bought 6 further units for a total of 1488 prestige and still had 1020 in the bank just before completing a BV. After that BV I had 1180 prestige. Deducting the 1020 that I had plus whatever I would have got for capturing the final VH means I was awarded virtually nothing for the win. Capped with a vengeance it seems!
Also interesting to see just how much prestige you can gain at Sedan for destroying enemy units and capturing VH's and the small flags (I took all but one in the north and a couple in the southeast).
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ErikM
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LotM, I understand that after Poland you have
3 infantry, 3 tanks, 1 reckon, 1 fighter, 1 bomber and 1 (or is it two?) arty (I would not upgrade 10.5 in Poland - rather, I'd buy a new gun).
1200 prestige.
I would buy:
2x Finnish Ski Infantry (no transport) ~ 300 prestige
1x 15.5cm gun on halftrucks ~ 400 prestige
1x reckon ~ 200 prestige
Then, depending on how much prestige you have left, buy either another 15.5 gun (priority if you only have one arty), another tank (wait with tanks if PzIVD is not available yet), a self-propelled AD gun (I think it is SdKfz 10/2), or a paratrooper.
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CerberusIV
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quote:
Originally posted by ErikM
a self-propelled AD gun (I think it is SdKfz 10/2). |
There are 2 available. The Sdkfz 10/4 and the Sdkfz 6/2. You want the 6/2 as it has a better air attack value. Eventually you should upgrade any SP AD units to the Sdkfz 7/1 (available at Volokolamsk).
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21-04-2004 03:25
Patch problems, maybe?
). As the British I find it easy to roll over the Italians, send about 1/2 of my forces up the peninsula and the rest hit Tunis from the south about the same time as the Americans from the north. As the Americans my core units do virtually all the work as the British can barely do more than finish off the Italians and take the VH's up the Cape Bon peninsula. You need to work on giving your core fighters experience and overstrengthing them by the sound of it.
i just finally figured how to work elite replacements so as not to lose experience.
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