11-03-2004 13:02									#31
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Only Heighten Spell allows you to increase the casting level. The Incantrix special doesn't help, either.

	11-03-2004 13:05									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Oh, and even with the cheese of an Incantrix, "quicken spell" still blows. 3 or 4 levels higher, and doesn't even raise the casting level.

It doesn't. In fact, it goes great with Increased Initiative. Go first, lob off a fireball. Since effects of a fireball depends on the caster level instead of the spell level IIRC, you do well with such a combo.

	11-03-2004 19:46									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Jon, you can certainly take the metamagic feats instead of "general" ones. You can take ANY feat you have the prereqs. for as a "general" feat.

I would like to see that actually

where is it found?

JM

	11-03-2004 19:47									#34
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quicken spell allows you to cast twice in a turn, I beleive

JM

	11-03-2004 19:54									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Grumbold, you're right, but they changed it in 3.5 to make specialist wizards worse. -Jam

Blech. Pure mage all the way for me, then.

	11-03-2004 20:17									#36
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quote: quicken spell allows you to cast twice in a turn, I beleive

Yes, because the "quickened spell" is a "free action". BUT that spell takes up a MUCH higher level slot. I mean, Fireball as an 7th level spell is a bit silly. It can only do 10d6 fire damage at the most.

quote: I would like to see that actually where is it found?

In the PHB.

All characters get a feat every 3 levels, right. This is what you call "general feats". You can take any feats for these picks that are allowed with your class and stats. A wizard could take quicken spell, or martial weapons prof or whatever.

Some classes (fighter and wizard) get extra feats. Fighter every 2 levels, wizard every 5. For these "class bonus feats" (what you call a metamagic feat) you can ONLY take the feats that apply to your class. A fighter can't take Improved Initiative, but he can take Weapon Focus, Cleave, Dodge etc. A wizard can't take Negotiator, but he could take Craft Wands, Spell Focus : Necromancy, Quicken Spell etc. There's a list of "class feats" in the PHB for wizards and fighters.

-Jam

	11-03-2004 22:13									#37
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so maybe take more item creation and metamagic

and forget the bladesinger

Jon Miller

	11-03-2004 22:14									#38
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I like the idea of quicken as an automatic ability

or taking a 6 th level slot

both an Incantrix can do

JM

	12-03-2004 00:55									#39
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being able to cast 7th level spells and quicken enables a wizard to deal an average of 70 damage in a fireball radius per turn (At least the first couple of turns)

how does that compare to 7th level DD spells?

Jon Miller

	12-03-2004 01:10									#40
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This is assuming you cast 2 fireballs in 1 turn? For 10d6+10d6 =20d6 fire damage, save for half (They'll make it pretty often, the guys you fight at that level, say half the time) = 52.5 points of fire damage average accross the area. Not bad. Not bad at all. I'm not sure its that great for using a level 7 and a level 3 slot when compared to the results you could get with just one 7th level spell - but probably a Maximised and Empowered Fireball would be better (10d6 = 60(maximised) + 50% = 90) with a save for 45. That's an average of 67.5 (again, assuming the targets make half the saves) and only would use up one slot. ok, ths would use an EIGHTH level slot, but would do nearly 30% more damage, and leave the 3 level slot empty for something else.

There's a lot of options here. I think Maximising and Empowering generally do more damage on average than casting 2 spells in one round with Quicken. In the long run this is CERTAIN, as you'll run out of spells a lot faster if you're doing 2 per round.

The advantage of Quicken would be that you could cast (for example) a quickened magic missile to disrupt enemy spell casting, and then a slow spell like disintigrate that won't go off till the end of the round. Or to cast "haste", and then take advantage of the extra movement, or cast "true striking", then still have a full turn to hit someone (could be lethal with a fighter/mage)

Hmm... hard choice.

I'd save Quicken till later, because you're a long way from having the higher spell slots you need for it.

-Jam

	12-03-2004 01:21									#41
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the empowered happens before the maximization

empowered plus maximised is on average 60 + 17 = 77 or 58 for half reflex, I guess still more...

jon Miller

	12-03-2004 01:39									#42
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Empowered adds 50% - so either its adding 10d6+5d6, which are then maximised = 90 or its maximised (60) and then adding 50% = 90

Surely?

-Jam

	12-03-2004 01:54									#43
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An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.

JM

	12-03-2004 05:27									#44
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Whoops... better not tell a certain DM about that

-Jam

	12-03-2004 19:07									#45
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so right now for feats I am looking at

still spell : metamagic 6
expertise : general 6
weapon focus longsword : general 9
dodge : general 12
quicken spell : metamagic 14
chain spell (or something like that) : metamagic 10
skill focus spell craft :general 18
empower : metamagic 15
maximise : metamagic (????) 17

if I do bladesinger

if I just stay wizardly I could do far more metamagic and item creation feats (because I wouldn't do dodge, or expertise, or weapon focus or still spell)

Jon Miller

	12-03-2004 19:53									#46
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Stay wizardly. Even with those feats you'll still suck as a fighter compared to the rest of the group. Go on... aim for ultimate wizard POWER

-Jam

	12-03-2004 23:12									#47
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I like the +15 AC and +1 attack that I would get from it though

Jon Miller

	13-03-2004 00:21									#48
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You would get that from only 2 levels of Bladesinger?

-Jam

	13-03-2004 00:26									#49
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I agree with everyone telling you to forget bladesinger, and go with the metamagic and item creation feats.

quote: I like the +15 AC and +1 attack that I would get from it though

Your, technically, a supped up Abjurer who needs the +15 AC when you can enhance a stone skin or some better spell?

+1 attack? Blah! Dodge a fireball or a charm spell! Or, with item creation, create a +1 weapon; there ya go!

If you want to be a battle mage tailor your spell selection to allow for this instead of tailoring your character class. You will be much more versatile this way, and as a dual class character, eventually more powerful... Mages rule.

If you are think about 3 classes, I would consider cleric over fighter additions.

	13-03-2004 00:28									#50
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yah

and from expertise

JM

	13-03-2004 00:33									#51
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no, + 1 attack

like 3 attacks in a full attack instead of 2

also, 15 AC standard, without any magic, the magic can be used for other stuff (or to make it even higher)

so unless there are far better feats...

what it is (the Bladesinger) is +Int Bonus to Dodge AC (on level 1, when longsword in one hand and nothing in the other, and when only having light or no armor)

Jon Miller

	13-03-2004 00:35									#52
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so on dodge and dex based AC, with no equipment other than a +5 Int Ring (which I will get no matter what) and a longsword, I will have

10 (base) + 2 (dex) + 1 (dodge) + 10 (Int Bonus) + 5 (Expertise) = 28

before spells, or Armor AC, or Dex Items or anything else like that

Jon Miller

	13-03-2004 00:35									#53
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Hmmm... quite tasty... but you'd lose a wizard level... could be worth it though. I try to get my wizards so they never get attacked anyway

-Jam

	13-03-2004 00:37									#54
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also, second level of bladesinger I would get an additional fighter or metamagic feat

I would also get like an extra 5 or 6 1st level spells and 2 or 3 2nd levels

Jon Miller

	13-03-2004 00:50									#55
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I sort of like the idea of straight wizard though

mostly because I can take metamagic and item creation feats in place of general feats

Jon Miller

	13-03-2004 03:47									#56
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Its really your choice. It depends if it would fit with your character. If you're playing a computer game you can go for power, but playing properly with friends... well you have to be a bit more sensible. Would your character take 2 levels of Bladesinger having always avoided combat before then?

-Jam

	13-03-2004 06:56									#57
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I don't always avoiud combat

actually I almost died in the first two came sections because I didn't think goblins were worth a magic missle

Jon Miller

	14-03-2004 09:29									#58
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If it walks, it's worth a magic missle. If it runs, it's worth a lightning bolt. If it doesn't need to walk or run, it's worth a wish.

Something I learned at an early age.

	14-03-2004 19:07									#59
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Better to cast a spell to many, than a spell not enough.

And NEVER save those potions for later. If the GM gives you a potion of Fire Protection - expect to be attacked by fire-breathing monster later.

-Jam

	16-03-2004 09:01									#60
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Has anybody ever tried playing a low-powered campaign with NPC classes? Warriors for fighters, Experts for rogues, Adepts for the spellcasters?

Prolly wouldn't work too well, but could be an interesting challenge.