13-03-2004 09:32									#121
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Tass, I think in the winter war there was no winners.

	13-03-2004 09:53									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar I thought this poll only counted winners?

Um, it does list the Byzantines and the IJA, both losers (though the former held out for quite some time).

	13-03-2004 10:05									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Tass, I think in the winter war there was no winners.

You know I'm just kidding

You Finns defended yourselves well against the Soviet aggressors

	13-03-2004 10:40									#124
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Actually I don't thionk of the Byzantines as heroically fending off the invading Slavs from the norht and the Arabs and Turks from the east, but instead as bumblers who whittled away their significant advantage over a period of hundreds of years. Think about it. They inherited the richest half of the Roman empire and they remained the most technologically sophisticated state with the exception of the Chinese empire for nearly one thousand years, yet their glory days lated less than 200 years. After Justinian died they began a long history of progressive losses to both the Slavs and the muslims. Surely had they even half the stones of their Roman ancestors they would have met these adversaries and eventually overcome them. Instead of rising to each of these challenges they simply tried to buy them off, never learning from their experiences and gradually rotting away at the core.

	13-03-2004 10:47									#125
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Actually Soviet aggressors had won Winter war.

	13-03-2004 13:01									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Actually I don't thionk of the Byzantines as heroically fending off the invading Slavs from the norht and the Arabs and Turks from the east, but instead as bumblers who whittled away their significant advantage over a period of hundreds of years. Think about it. They inherited the richest half of the Roman empire and they remained the most technologically sophisticated state with the exception of the Chinese empire for nearly one thousand years, yet their glory days lated less than 200 years. After Justinian died they began a long history of progressive losses to both the Slavs and the muslims. Surely had they even half the stones of their Roman ancestors they would have met these adversaries and eventually overcome them. Instead of rising to each of these challenges they simply tried to buy them off, never learning from their experiences and gradually rotting away at the core.

I think the plaque killed the Eastern Empire. It hit in 542 during the Gothic Wars, and recurred, IIRC, about every ten years. By the time of 600's rolled around, the East was but a shadow of what it was only a few short decades earlier.

	13-03-2004 13:14									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Austin.

Wrong, it's Houston!

*Click*

	13-03-2004 14:22									#128
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It's certainly San Antonio. Since that's where the Alamo's at.

	13-03-2004 19:41									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I think the plaque killed the Eastern Empire. It hit in 542 during the Gothic Wars, and recurred, IIRC, about every ten years. By the time of 600's rolled around, the East was but a shadow of what it was only a few short decades earlier.

That's some seriously deadly teeth discoloration.

	13-03-2004 19:43									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Actually I don't thionk of the Byzantines as heroically fending off the invading Slavs from the norht and the Arabs and Turks from the east, but instead as bumblers who whittled away their significant advantage over a period of hundreds of years. Think about it. They inherited the richest half of the Roman empire and they remained the most technologically sophisticated state with the exception of the Chinese empire for nearly one thousand years, yet their glory days lated less than 200 years. After Justinian died they began a long history of progressive losses to both the Slavs and the muslims. Surely had they even half the stones of their Roman ancestors they would have met these adversaries and eventually overcome them. Instead of rising to each of these challenges they simply tried to buy them off, never learning from their experiences and gradually rotting away at the core.

Justinian's military exploits were to blame for much of the subsequent problems of the Empire. He overstretched their limits, exposing the Empire to a host of problem both military and financial. His reclamation of Italy was ultimately a disaster.

	13-03-2004 19:59									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I think the plaque killed the Eastern Empire. It hit in 542 during the Gothic Wars, and recurred, IIRC, about every ten years. By the time of 600's rolled around, the East was but a shadow of what it was only a few short decades earlier.

What kind of plague? It certainly wasn't the bubonic plague. Records of the well-described bubonic plague epidemics in Europe during the Middle Ages and Renaissance show that after the great plague the proportion of the population immune to Yersinia pestis increased by about 50% with each epidemic. Thus the population loss in the epidemic in the 1660s was much smaller than that in the 14th century. Had bubonic plague struck centuries earlier than the great plague would never have happened because most of the population would have been immune. Furthermore it's unlikely that the same epidemic would hit the same region every ten years. I can't think of a documented occurence. Finally, you'd be shocked at how quickly a population can recover from the devastation of an epidemic. Europe's population recovered from the great plague in a mere two generations.

	13-03-2004 20:25									#132
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http://campus.northpark.edu/history...ope/Plague.html

Looks like it was bubonic plague to me, and I think most historians agree that it was.

	13-03-2004 21:18									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov from That's some seriously deadly teeth discoloration.

	13-03-2004 21:22									#134
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Well, Dr. Strangelove, whatever it was, and it probably was Bubonic Plague, the contrast between the state of the Empire in 542 and 610 is remarkable. The decline in power was the most dramatic imaginable. It had to be caused by disease.

	13-03-2004 21:55									#135
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I'd like to put a mention in for the defenders of Wake Island, 1942. While their initial victory is mostly attributable to Japanese arrogance, the massive casualties inflicted upon the second Japanese assault was due solely to the tenacity of the defenders in the face of a far superior Japanese force. Special credit should go to the Marine pilots.

	13-03-2004 23:21									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Well, Dr. Strangelove, whatever it was, and it probably was Bubonic Plague, the contrast between the state of the Empire in 542 and 610 is remarkable. The decline in power was the most dramatic imaginable. It had to be caused by disease.

OK. My old genetics text was unaware of that one, but it only killed half the population according to eMedicine . The plague of the 14th century killed about 40% of the population. Like I said before Europe recovered from the later within two generations. A single plague isn't enough to explain 900 years of decline.

	14-03-2004 00:13									#137
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some of you guys have mentioned the U.S. defending against Japan. I think one guy mentioned Midway.

The thing about that is we intercepted and cracked their code. This gave us an advantage.

	14-03-2004 04:53									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove OK. My old genetics text was unaware of that one, but it only killed half the population according to eMedicine . The plague of the 14th century killed about 40% of the population. Like I said before Europe recovered from the later within two generations. A single plague isn't enough to explain 900 years of decline.

No, but what happend during the Empire's decline from 580 - 660 or so?

It was dismembered and almost completely overrun.

	14-03-2004 05:31									#139
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Looking around the web I'm having a great deal of difficulty obtaining accurate estimates of the timeline of the bubonic plague during this time period. Some sources mention 476 as the possible onset, others 560. Some mark its conclusion at around 600, others consider it to have ended as late as 740.

The Slavs staged major assaults upon the Balkans portions of the empire after 560, even attempting to lay siege to Constantinople in 580 (I think). The muslims don't show up until later in the 7th century. What I don't know is what effect the plague had on these two groups. One source places the origin of the plague in Africa, spreading to Syria, Palestine, and Persia before striking Asia Minor and the Balkans region. If the slavs were attacking the Empire at the time when the plague was raging then they would have been as devastated as the Byzantines. Furthermore it is evident that the plague took a heavy toll in areas of the world from which the muslims drew their troops. As I said before populations can recover from major epidemics surprisingly quickly. Apparently the thinning of a population may allow improved survival of the young once the offending agent has passed. Perhaps the rate iof childhood death from other diseases goes down. One usual feature of the plague seems to be that once it hits an area it goes away for along tyime because it kills off the vector species of rat.

	14-03-2004 06:01									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove OK. My old genetics text was unaware of that one, but it only killed half the population according to eMedicine . The plague of the 14th century killed about 40% of the population. Like I said before Europe recovered from the later within two generations. A single plague isn't enough to explain 900 years of decline.

Actually parts of Europe did not recover (in terms of reaching the same level of population pre-Black Death) until the 19th Century.

This was in part due to the unprecedented increases in urban population, improvements in agriculture and climate before the 14th Century.

	14-03-2004 06:18									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident some of you guys have mentioned the U.S. defending against Japan. I think one guy mentioned Midway. The thing about that is we intercepted and cracked their code. This gave us an advantage.

not at the eariler fighting though

	14-03-2004 06:38									#142
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I smell a medieval thread coming on. Let's talk about gout!

	14-03-2004 07:06									#143
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Actually parts of Europe did not recover (in terms of reaching the same level of population pre-Black Death) until the 19th Century. This was in part due to the unprecedented increases in urban population, improvements in agriculture and climate before the 14th Century.

The gross population recovered within 40 to 50 years. I honestly don't think that there were remarkable advances in agriculture within that time period.

	14-03-2004 10:38									#144
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Don't think you're right reopulation.

Attachment: plague and science.doc
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	12-04-2004 13:13									#145
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now why is it we don't have a thread titled: who were the greatest attackers of all time?

I would do it, but I'm not sure who all to include in the poll.

I nominate the Mongols. They did pretty good with the technology they had.

I would say the U.S. in March of 2003. but technology did most of the work.

	12-04-2004 14:16									#146
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Greatest defenders?

Going to go with The knights on Rhodes and later Malta. I just finnished reading a book about them.

	16-04-2004 13:00									#147
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I'd go with two Russian defences: The Battle of Stalingrad and the Siege of Leningrad. If I had to choose I'd give the edge to Leningrad: They held out for years against all odds.