15-03-2004 19:48									#211
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quote: Turkey hasn't done anything like that.

Turkey isn't an Arab country.

quote: This was demonstrably FALSE.

No it isn't. We have no idea how Spanish involvement in Iraq affected Spanish security and no idea what the long-term effects of a new government in Iraq will have on Islamic fundamentalist movements.

	15-03-2004 19:49									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue A victory for terrorists. They are now aware that Spain's populace will negotiate with them.

Riiiiiiight!

So if terrorists attack, one should vote for the party in power to send a message to the terrorists? Isn't that just letting the terrorists run the election?

	15-03-2004 19:49									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue A victory for terrorists. They are now aware that Spain's populace will negotiate with them.

Oh, of course, next they will ask for all Christian to leave Spain, and those cowardly Spaniards will run...

	15-03-2004 19:50									#214
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"So if terrorists attack, one should vote for the party in power to send a message to the terrorists? Isn't that just letting the terrorists run the election?"

You should make your decisions in the full knowledge of what they will look like.

And Spain's election looks like a concession of defeat to AL Qaeda.

	15-03-2004 19:51									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Turkey hasn't done anything like that. Turkey isn't an Arab country.

No, it is a muslim country. Of course, Most Iraqis are Shia, not Sunni, and one assumed the Kurds won;'t break of and form a state of their own, but certainly a state that is 85% Arab, most of them from a minority Islamic sect will be a greate xmaple to those sunni Arab states.

	15-03-2004 19:59									#216
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Jeez, the incoming Spanish government isn't even considering the consequences of what it's saying. Now AQ claiming that they chased a Western country from Islamic lands is reinforced. Bunch of freaking idiots.

	15-03-2004 20:00									#217
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Socialist claim victory in Spain Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by PLATO The point is that the majority polled differently before the attack. The nearness to the elections of the attack allowed no time for public opinion to stabilize. This was clearly a reactionary vote. If you had put Bush up for re-election a week after 9/11 then he would have gotten 90% of the vote. Upon further reflection, it doesn't appear that will be the result, now does it?

So Al Qaeda wins if Bush get's re-elected...

I like your line of reasoning.

I don't know much about Spanish politics. It was clear the war was unpopular in Spain. Yes, the terrorist action influenced the vote. But only because the party in power could not do it's job and protect its people (JUST LIKE DOPEY DUBYA).

I don't think Al Qaeda wanted to influence elections. There isn't a single party friendly to them. They hate and they want to kill. It's as simple as that. It's clear the timing of the bombings was more a symbolic gesture (911 days after 9-11 and on 3-11). I think the timing of the elections is coincidence.

BTW, you have to be criminally retarded to think Al Qaeda "wins" because the incumbent party got kicked out.

	15-03-2004 20:02									#218
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So much for a vote for security.

Typical appeasement and predictable response from the aggressor.

	15-03-2004 20:03									#219
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quote: BTW, you have to be criminally retarded to think Al Qaeda "wins" because the incumbent party got kicked out.

Spoken by the acknowledged master of being criminally retarded...

	15-03-2004 20:04									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: BTW, you have to be criminally retarded to think Al Qaeda "wins" because the incumbent party got kicked out. Spoken by the acknowledged master of being criminally retarded...

I know my own.

	15-03-2004 20:04									#221
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Spain's Socialist Party prime minister-elect says he will pull troops out of Iraq - unless the UN takes charge.
Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said: "The war in Iraq was a disaster, the occupation of Iraq is a disaster."

He called for a grand international alliance against terror and an end to "unilateral wars".

The Socialists won a shock poll victory after voters appeared to turn on the government over its handling of the Madrid bombings that killed 200 people.


Spain, with more than 1,300 troops in Iraq, supported the US-led war on Iraq despite much domestic opposition.

Police are quizzing five men over the Madrid bombings, amid reports that one of them has links to a group blamed for attacks in Casablanca last May that killed 45 people.

Iraq pull-out

At a news conference in Madrid, Mr Zapatero said his priority will be a "systematic fight against terrorism of all kinds".

He again reiterated his opposition to the US-led war in Iraq, but said his government would maintain what he described as "cordial relations" with Washington.

However Mr Zapatero said President Bush and UK Prime Minister Tony Blair needed to "engage in some self-criticism" over their decision to invade Iraq.

He made clear that he would withdraw Spanish troops in Iraq if the United Nations did not take charge of running the country.

	15-03-2004 20:06									#222
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"So if terrorists attack, one should vote for the party in power to send a message to the terrorists? Isn't that just letting the terrorists run the election?"

That's what happened. People were set to re-elect the PP, but the terrorist act changed their minds. They did send a message out to the terrorist with their vote, that message being "Please don't hurt us"


"The PP claimed that going into Iraq, even against a supermayority of Spanish public opinion was the correct thing to do becuase it would help keep Spain safe."

I suppose it's correct that that for a western country to support the USA does not make it safer and makes it more likely for terrorists to target their country. The terrorits probably won't be striking Switzerland or Portugal anytime soon. So yes, for the west, standing up for their ally the USA does come with risks, that if they fight the war on terror alongside us they might also become a target of the terrorists. Spain in the face of these risks has chosen the path of retreat.

Of course, not supporting the USA making you safer only works for the short term. If in the long term Al Qaeda does defeat the USA, if America is ever scared into isolationism and withdrawing from trying to fight Islamic fundamentalism, who knows where the jihadists will strike next? All we do know is they are bent on spreading Islamic Fundamentalist rule wherever they can and that they will kill whomever they feel they need to in order to accomplish their aims.

	15-03-2004 20:07									#223
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quote: He made clear that he would withdraw Spanish troops in Iraq if the United Nations did not take charge of running the country.

This guy is a goddamn idiot. The possibility of this happening is zero (sovereignty is going back to the Iraqis in June, after all ), so he's just grandstanding and giving AQ more fodder. Spain can pull it's troops out, but doing it this way is handing a victory to AQ.

	15-03-2004 20:08									#224
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quote: That's what happened. People were set to re-elect the PP, but the terrorist act changed their minds. They did send a message out to the terrorist with their vote, that message being "Please don't hurt us"

YES, BECAUSE THE PARTY IN POWER COULDN'T PROTECT ITS PEOPLE. IT WAS IN DERELICTION OF DUTY JUST LIKE BUSH LEADING UP TO 9-11.

Oh wait, but the socialist party loves Al Qaeda right?

give me a ****ing break... you guys are smarter than this... some of you...

	15-03-2004 20:11									#225
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"Turkey hasn't done anything like that. What makes you think a sucsessful Iraq would do anything like that?"

I have to go to class now and I'll adress that later, but I will point out that even it is true Iraq would not be a good model, my point still stands about that if the insurgents are sucsessfull or if the government we attempt to set up in Iraq fails, there is a strong possibility that what comes into power would either be pro-terrorist if not Islamist itself.

	15-03-2004 20:12									#226
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Jeez, the incoming Spanish government isn't even considering the consequences of what it's saying. Now AQ claiming that they chased a Western country from Islamic lands is reinforced. Bunch of freaking idiots.

So 80%+ Spaniards were against the war in Iraq to begin with. They vote for a party that promises to pull out of Iraq. So Spaniards must be appeasing Al Qaida.

Love your logic. So what you are saying is that the Spaniards should change their mind because of the attacks? Isn't that giving in to the terrorists?

	15-03-2004 20:12									#227
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1) Why is everyone looking to the UN? They left faster than the Spanish are after being bombed.

2) Also what's with demanding the UN takeover the country in June? The Iraqis might be a little peaved if that actually happens considering we've been talking about handing over power to them that month.

	15-03-2004 20:13									#228
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Because he didn't even stop to think about the policy before running his mouth, Dino.

	15-03-2004 20:13									#229
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quote: Originally posted by DanS This guy is a goddamn idiot.

Yes, following through on a campaign promise that shares 80%+ popular support is stupid.

Perhaps we should just resurrect Franco and put him back in charge?

	15-03-2004 20:16									#230
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quote: Yes, following through on a campaign promise that shares 80%+ popular support is stupid.

Read the rest of my post next time.

	15-03-2004 20:17									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue And Spain's election looks like a concession of defeat to AL Qaeda.

Or a desire to get out of Iraq ...

Or a desire that the government respect the wishes of its people over the desires of George Bush II ...

Or they want a more socialized economy (what does the Spanish economy look like right now anyway?) ...

Or there was anger that Aznar lying about the bombing ...

Or that Aznar lied about Iraq making Spain safer ...

Or ...

	15-03-2004 20:19									#232
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In 1986 Italian rightwinger derailed a likely Socialist victory by commiting an act of terror.

The logic against the election of the socialist this time was the same logic those rightwingers in 1986 saw when planting those bombs- "anytime a terrorist attack happens, vote for the right!".

I guess DanS and DD and others agree with that fundamental logic that claimed those 86 Italian lives a decade and a half ago.

	15-03-2004 20:20									#233
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quote: I guess DanS and DD and others agree with that fundamental logic that claimed those 86 Italian lives a decade and a half ago.

Weren't you just bashing me for posting sentimental drivel on the other thread? At least my drivel is current...

	15-03-2004 20:21									#234
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Read the rest of my post next time.

Read it the first time. I thought the bit about pulling out of Iraq being an AQ victory was too wingnut for the US, let alone Spain. And so it was not worthy of comment.

	15-03-2004 20:22									#235
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I suppose it's correct that that for a western country to support the USA does not make it safer and makes it more likely for terrorists to target their country. The terrorits probably won't be striking Switzerland or Portugal anytime soon. So yes, for the west, standing up for their ally the USA does come with risks, that if they fight the war on terror alongside us they might also become a target of the terrorists. Spain in the face of these risks has chosen the path of retreat. Of course, not supporting the USA making you safer only works for the short term. If in the long term Al Qaeda does defeat the USA, if America is ever scared into isolationism and withdrawing from trying to fight Islamic fundamentalism, who knows where the jihadists will strike next? All we do know is they are bent on spreading Islamic Fundamentalist rule wherever they can and that they will kill whomever they feel they need to in order to accomplish their aims.

At the bottom of your post remains the fundamnetally flawed premise that the war in Iraq is crucial to fighting AQ. That has yet to be argued with any success, so any assumptions made with that as an underlying assumption are faulty.

Spain will prosecute the AQ cells behind this, will continue to support the campaing to crush AQ cells in the west, and the war in afghanistan against AQ.
So your only point liesd again with logic you have failed to prove.

	15-03-2004 20:24									#236
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quote: I guess DanS and DD and others agree with that fundamental logic that claimed those 86 Italian lives a decade and a half ago.

You haven't read what I posted earlier. The Spaniards can vote whoever they please, and they can make the policy that they please, after due deliberation.

	15-03-2004 20:25									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: I'd expect more terrorist attacks in Europe now, since now it will seem that Europeans are not willing to suffer casulties to support their allies. I agree. It's becoming obvious that Europe is the weak link in the Western alliance, a fact that Al Qaeda is sure to notice and do their best to take advantage of.

Western Alliance!!?

The sooner you get it into your head that there is no western alliance the better...

All the western alliance is, is a few European leaders who happen to be in power (one less now ), who have decided to act undemocratically against the wishes of the people in toadying up to a bullying superpower by siding with the US in this illegal war...

Iraq is the US's mess and the sooner Europe disengages from the whole sorry episode the better - all the US has succeeded in doing IMO is drawing a 'Human Shield' around itself by encouraging allies to join in on its crackpot hunt for phantom WMD's...

And yes, unfortunately, due to the fact that the Spanish people have suddenly woken up to a dose of reality and kicked out a lying government - on the face of it yes it does look like caving in to AQ, even if it isn't...

And yes, thanks to this I fully expect an equivalent act to be attempted in the UK.

Maybe if we'd have spent those billions and billions of dollars ($87bn for the US alone?) and used that massive manpower that invaded Iraq (150,000+ for a year so far) and that is currently bogged down in the Iraqi quagmire, HUNTING AL-QAEDA - maybe, just maybe we would have caught Bin Laden and smashed the leadership of AQ and just maybe...

Just maybe IF WE HAD KEPT OUR EYES ON THE ****ING BALL AND NOT DECIDED TO FINISH DADDY'S BUSINESS FOR NO GOOD ****ING REASON WHATSOEVER BUT ACTUALLY GO AFTER THE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE GLOBAL TERRORISM IN THE 1ST PLACE - just maybe there wouldn't have been an AQ to bomb Madrid and kill 200 people...

Just a thought...

Sorry about the caps there, but the biggest mistake ever in all of this in my view is taking the foot off the gas against AQ when it seemed as though we had them on the run and allowing them to regroup and recruit - which was one of the main reasons I was against attack Iraq in the 1st place...

Pure ****ing genius...

Now I've gone and written a long post and wasted 15 mins of my life...

	15-03-2004 20:25									#238
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I guess DanS and DD and others agree with that fundamental logic that claimed those 86 Italian lives a decade and a half ago.

Eh? I'm just mildly curious about the policy objectives stated by the Socialist party in Spain. They seem a little odd to me.

	15-03-2004 20:25									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Weren't you just bashing me for posting sentimental drivel on the other thread? At least my drivel is current...

That is not sentimetal-nowhere did I say I care aout the families of those 86 killed.

But the logic is the same "you can't give in to terrorists!". Well, that was what Italian voters thought in 1986, and damned if the guys who planted those bombs read them well. If one advocates that voters must keep in mind the aims of terrorist when making their decisions (hat is, the aims of those they blame for the attack at the time of voting), then why shouldn't rightwingers simulate the Italian example more often? Heck, it worked once, and we seem to have people here arguing for logic that would help it work again.

	15-03-2004 20:25									#240
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quote: I thought the bit about pulling out of Iraq being an AQ victory was too wingnut for the US, let alone Spain.

Then you've reading comprehension problems (not surprising to me, really), because I didn't say that.