24-03-2004 05:48									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Who's getting bent out of shape, Ming? Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that homosexuality causes these public harms. Why should we ban the one and not the other? Could you not try to answer my question?

We shouldn't, but they DON'T, so it's a non-issue.

It's like asking "what if eating butter causes the same public harm as killing and eating people?"

	24-03-2004 06:02									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that homosexuality causes these public harms.

Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that religion causes these public harms...

The point is... YOU CAN'T PROVE IT... SO WHY BRING IT UP. IT'S A NON ISSUE.

The only thing that you can prove is that "some" religions are against it... that is NOT public harm... Some religions are against premarrital sex, and divorce... but those are not against the law either.

	24-03-2004 06:06									#183
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quote: Well, generally people dying

AIDS anyone?

quote: Homosexuality cannot be shown to cause ANY public harm beyond what "harm" promiscuity in general causes.

Easier transmission of AIDS.

quote: We shouldn't, but they DON'T, so it's a non-issue.

No it isn't.

Before one can argue whether or not homosexuality falls under compelling interest, we must first define what constitutes a compelling public interest.

The fact that the government does choose to ban certain substances seems very significant to what interests they consider compelling.

	24-03-2004 06:07									#184
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Ming:

What about them Mormons?

Why shouldn't they practice polygamy?

Isn't that a compelling public interest?

	24-03-2004 06:10									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi AIDS anyone?

A risk in ANY sex

quote: Easier transmission of AIDS.

People going to school causes an easier transmission of other diseases. What's your point?

quote: No it isn't. Before one can argue whether or not homosexuality falls under compelling interest, we must first define what constitutes a compelling public interest. The fact that the government does choose to ban certain substances seems very significant to what interests they consider compelling.

How about a large, immediate risk of death or injury?

Drugs do so. Gay sex does not.

	24-03-2004 06:12									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Ming: What about them Mormons? Why shouldn't they practice polygamy? Isn't that a compelling public interest?

1. That issue isn't entirely decided, if you look at apolyon

2. You can already practice "polygamy", just without legal recognition. The compelling interest here is the fact that marriage law is designed for two people specifically (with things like rights to determine what to do with the corps, inheritence, etc.) and it would be a HUGE mess with three people.

	24-03-2004 06:19									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi AIDS anyone?

So... only homosexuals get AIDs... tell that to the heavy infected areas in Africa...

quote: Easier transmission of AIDS.

No... If an infected person sleeps around with no protection, it doesn't matter whether it's a male or female

quote: Before one can argue whether or not homosexuality falls under compelling interest, we must first define what constitutes a compelling public interest.

Your concept of compelling public interest is based soley on your religious beliefs... premarratial sex and divorce are against many religions... this is not different.

quote: The fact that the government does choose to ban certain substances seems very significant to what interests they consider compelling.

It has nothing to do with this discussion. Homosexuality is not drug use. You keep wanting to tar and feather homosexuality by associating it with illegal activity that many consider bad... Again... religion seems to support priests abusing children by not cracking down more on it... by turning a blind eye... we can change the discussion to that if you wish... because that seems to be what you want to do when you bring up drug use and compare it to homosexuality.

It doesn't cause public harm... no proof what so ever.
AIDs and other STD's effect EVERYBODY... straight and gay. If you want to bring that into the discussion, why don't you just advocate making sex between anybody illegal.

	24-03-2004 06:22									#188
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quote: The compelling interest here is the fact that marriage law is designed for two people specifically (with things like rights to determine what to do with the corps, inheritence, etc.) and it would be a HUGE mess with three people.

And why is this any more correct than to say that the marriage law is designed for one man and one woman?

Could I not also say, as you do, that to do otherwise, causes a large mess? That the country has a compelling interest to preserve marriage?

	24-03-2004 06:23									#189
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I think there is a compelling public interest to get rid of fundies

	24-03-2004 06:28									#190
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quote: So... only homosexuals get AIDs... tell that to the heavy infected areas in Africa...

No, they aren't the only ones, but nowhere do I say that.

All I'm saying is that they have a higher incidence rate.

quote: If an infected person sleeps around with no protection, it doesn't matter whether it's a male or female

I would think it would matter whether one gives or recieves.

quote: Your concept of compelling public interest is based soley on your religious beliefs... premarratial sex and divorce are against many religions... this is not different.

Who cares about me?

I want to hear what you find compelling.

quote: It doesn't cause public harm... no proof what so ever. AIDs and other STD's effect EVERYBODY... straight and gay. If you want to bring that into the discussion, why don't you just advocate making sex between anybody illegal.

And why not do the same with drugs?

That brings us back to my first point, of what people consider to be a compelling public interest.

quote: Again... religion seems to support priests abusing children by not cracking down more on it... by turning a blind eye... we can change the discussion to that if you wish.

Your religion, and not mine. My religion does not have these priests, so why should I be compelled to defend them and their actions? Would that not be like holding me responsible for the actions of Muslims?

	24-03-2004 06:31									#191
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slightly OT, but BK, what's your response to this?

	24-03-2004 06:33									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Could I not also say, as you do, that to do otherwise, causes a large mess? That the country has a compelling interest to preserve marriage?

And what mess does it cause? Oh, against your religon, but no other reason. It solves a lot of current problems... by allowing gay people to define their lives amoung themselves and in the eyes of the law the same as any other couple. It doesn't cause a problem, it solves a big problem. The country does have a compelling interest to solve these problems... and it can fix it by allowing gay marriages. And this will have no effect on religions. They can still consider it a sin, just like all the other sins... and they don't have to hold such weddings in their churches if they don't want to. It has no effect on them what so ever.

	24-03-2004 06:36									#193
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Eh, thanks Skywalker.

Rather busy this past while.

Will bump that thread, but then I must go.

	24-03-2004 06:56									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Easier transmission of AIDS.

A typically sloppy use of language by someone with an all too obvious agenda.

Homosexuality does not 'cause' or lead to 'easier transmission of 'AIDS'.

I know people who have been gay and celibate- how easily will they transmit H.I.V. ? Via brainwave activity perhaps, or through homosexual pheromones....

Unprotected penetrative sex, whether heterosexual or between gay men, will tend to increase the possibility of infection with H.I.V., if the parties have been exposed to the virus at some point in their sexual history.

How does non-penetrative or penetrative lesbian sex lead to 'easier transmission of A.I.D.S.', by which again, presumably you mean H.I.V. ?

Of course it doesn't, but you'll probably say that female homosexuality is 'different' from male homosexuality or some such other feeble get out.

Who's getting bent out of shape?

I'd say the people whose language is clearly loaded with prejudice from word one.

Is there a difference between H.I.V. and A.I.D.S. ?
Why, so there is.

http://www.aids-india.org/faq1.htm

	24-03-2004 07:36									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi No, they aren't the only ones, but nowhere do I say that. All I'm saying is that they have a higher incidence rate.

So what... the simple fact is that AIDs is not restricted to homosexuals, so to base your argument of public safety on it doesn't work.

quote: I would think it would matter whether one gives or recieves.

And this has what to do with the topic?

quote: Who cares about me? I want to hear what you find compelling.

Then I will repeat it one more time since you don't seem to be getting the message. I don't find any compelling argument against it. And you have proven none against it as well... you talk about aids and public safety, but you have proven nothing. There is NO REASON why it should be illegal. Is that clear enough for you. Now... You give a REAL and PROVEN reason why it should be.

quote: And why not do the same with drugs?

Drugs are illegal and have been proven to have a negative effect. There is no NEGATIVE effect of homosexuality beyond being a sin for some religions.

quote: That brings us back to my first point, of what people consider to be a compelling public interest.

In circles again... I have stated that there is NO compelling public interest reason to not allow it. Your ONLY compelling public interest is a lame aids argument and the fact you personally think it's wrong.

quote: Your religion, and not mine.

Ahhhh... but religion is religion... right. A far better statement than you trying to relate drug users with homosexuals. So my point is... sexually abusive priests have as little to do with this discussion as your point about comparing this to drug use.

One last time... what is your compelling reason that this is against the public interest. I've stated that there is no reason. I've answered your question. Now you answer mine with something you can actually prove beyond it's a sin or against your personal beliefs.

Frankly... it's against my personal beliefs as well... and is not something I would consider... but that doesn't mean I'm going to cram my beliefs down other peoples throats. I have many gay friends, and it sickens me that they get treated like they do. It's their lives... and they deserve the same happiness any other couple has. And I will fight for their right to have it. If there is a god... and he/she feels it's wrong or a sin... he can judge. It's not my place to judge... and neither is it yours.

	24-03-2004 07:55									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi And why not do the same with drugs?

Drug use is not a victimless crime. Drug users commit all kinds of crimes, especially against members of their own families.

	24-03-2004 08:00									#197
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quote: Frankly... it's against my personal beliefs as well... and is not something I would consider... but that doesn't mean I'm going to cram my beliefs down other peoples throats. I have many gay friends, and it sickens me that they get treated like they do. It's their lives... and they deserve the same happiness any other couple has. And I will fight for their right to have it. If there is a god... and he/she feels it's wrong or a sin... he can judge. It's not my place to judge... and neither is it yours.

My religious beliefs do not approve of homosexuality, but neither do they approve or condone the blind hatred and sometimes violence some so-called 'Christians' have for homosexuals.

	24-03-2004 08:06									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Verto My religious beliefs do not approve of homosexuality, but neither do they approve or condone the blind hatred and sometimes violence some so-called 'Christians' have for homosexuals.

I'm a non practicing Catholic because I could no longer put up with the crap coming from supposedly "christian" people... I can believe in god and follow the teachings and live my life the way I think I should without having to support an organization that I believe doesn't truely understand their own religion anymore.

	24-03-2004 08:58									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi AIDS anyone? Easier transmission of AIDS.

What a blatantly, bigoted, distorted, ignorant, nonsensical statement.

	24-03-2004 10:06									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Frankly... it's against my personal beliefs as well... and is not something I would consider... but that doesn't mean I'm going to cram my beliefs down other peoples throats. I have many gay friends, and it sickens me that they get treated like they do. It's their lives... and they deserve the same happiness any other couple has. And I will fight for their right to have it. If there is a god... and he/she feels it's wrong or a sin... he can judge. It's not my place to judge... and neither is it yours.

	24-03-2004 11:43									#201
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun What a blatantly, bigoted, distorted, ignorant, nonsensical statement.

MrFun, have you heard?

There is a greater incidence of Sudden Cot Death Syndrome amongst babies than there is amongst us homos.

Clearly, god has it in for babies.

And in breaking news, Spanish influenza was god's punishment for not having electric heated windows in cars, and the Black Death of the 14th Century was god's punishment for tacky period costume and poor drains.

You knew it had to be only a matter of time before Obi Gyn climbed up on the misinformation bandwagon, and started coming out with A.I.D.S. = HOMOS.

Entirely omitting lesbians, of course, but whaddaya expect?

	24-03-2004 16:08									#202
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If it is a case of 'compelling public interest', why is smoking pot illegal? Smoking pot clearly does no-one any harm.

	24-03-2004 19:25									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh If it is a case of 'compelling public interest', why is smoking pot illegal? Smoking pot clearly does no-one any harm.

The illegality of pot smoking is under question in some states precisely because their legislatures and constituents agree with the argument that pot causes no-one any harm. Why use one extremely questionable law (banning pot) as a basis for supporting another extremely questionable law (banning homosexuality)? Do you wish to argue that homosexuality should be banned regardless of whether it is in the public interest to do so?

	24-03-2004 20:10									#204
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quote: There is a greater incidence of Sudden Cot Death Syndrome amongst babies than there is amongst us homos.

What kind of monster lets a baby sleep in a cot? You homos are never going to be able to adopt children if you don't even know that babies should be put into a crib...

	24-03-2004 20:26									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh If it is a case of 'compelling public interest', why is smoking pot illegal? Smoking pot clearly does no-one any harm.

First, the laws against MJ are pretty clearly the result of decades-long smear campaigning by certain law makers who thought the stuff was dangerous. Turns out that damn near all the stuff they told the public about it is false. As people realize this, I suspect there will be more and more support for changing the law.

Second, there are potential ill effects of Pot that go beyond the person using it. #1 - driving stoned. Just like driving drunk, you are impaired. Trouble is, AFAIK, drug testing for pot will give a positive result whether you smoked that same day, or two weeks prior. This makes enforcement of traffic safety difficult because there is no (AFAIK) pot equivalent of a breathalizer.
#2 - second hand smoke. Same issue as with cigs, the smoke is carginogenic, and therefore poses a health risk, so others shouldn't have to breath it. That's not a big deal - same laws applied to smoking cigs can be applied here, or one could simply eat the stuff and avoid the smoke altogether (better on the lungs).

Anyway, I see that Ben is up to his usual tricks (bring out HIV transmission REALLY showed your true colors, young jedi) and others have handily smacked down his "arguments." And, of course, it changes nothing.

-Arrian

	24-03-2004 20:46									#206
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom MrFun, have you heard? There is a greater incidence of Sudden Cot Death Syndrome amongst babies than there is amongst us homos. Clearly, god has it in for babies. And in breaking news, Spanish influenza was god's punishment for not having electric heated windows in cars, and the Black Death of the 14th Century was god's punishment for tacky period costume and poor drains. You knew it had to be only a matter of time before Obi Gyn climbed up on the misinformation bandwagon, and started coming out with A.I.D.S. = HOMOS. Entirely omitting lesbians, of course, but whaddaya expect?

Wow -- you're absolutely right!


Show me where I can go to the nearest place to convert to heterosexuality!

	24-03-2004 21:30									#207
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Are people actually defending what the article in question is talking about?!

	24-03-2004 21:59									#208
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This is the forum for devil's advocates, after all...

	24-03-2004 22:11									#209
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Lower-class whites have a higher risk of poor health in general as a result of eating too much Wonder Bread. So what, Ben? You can't force them to change their diet. If your son is prodigal, let him go. If he's wrong he'll find it out on his own terms in his own time; all past evidence suggests that he ain't about to listen to you.

	24-03-2004 22:13									#210
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Again, we already have this Elok.

One can be homosexual without being arrested.

I don't see why we ought to endorse the behaviour through marriage.