01-04-2004 03:16									#181
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The Richard Gwyn article makes an interesting point - that multilateral or UN-sponsored intervention is not more effective than unilateral action. Many opposed the mainly USUK action in Iraq because it was 'unilateral' - implying they would have supported it if the UN had.

Unilaterilaism became a dirty word during the pre-war debate, but for me it misses the point - Kosovo, Bosnia and Iraq all show that imposing democracy on a society through the barrel of a gun doesn't work, whoever blesses it, and whatever Mr Blair and Mr Wolfowitz think.

	01-04-2004 03:45									#182
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Cort Haus, am I mistaken or are you having a generally pro Serb view of the conflicts in ex Yugoslavia?

May I enquire why?

	01-04-2004 04:36									#183
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{sigh}

VetLegion, anyone challenging the western media consensus on the former Yugoslavia is labelled 'pro-Serb'.

When I meet Croatians, I prefer to talk football than politics I'm a great admirer of the Croatian side of '98. btw - what a brilliant goal from Darijo Srna to put Croatia 2-1 up against Turkey. Thierry Henry would have been proud of that. Too bad for your team that Turkey equalised. My team, England, were hopeless tonight against Sweden.

	01-04-2004 04:37									#184
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mispost

	01-04-2004 21:32									#185
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Cort Haus

Serbs and Croats both have large diasporas which have contributed not only money but also various propaganda and lobbying efforts to their countries' war efforts.

As soon as hostilities started, you had Serbs exploiting the fact that NDH existed in World War II, labeling the newly independant Croatia as a fascist state created for genocide. This had a big media effect, and the ripples are still felt, even in this thread (you mentioned it).

On the other hand, Croatia tried to present to the world the destruction Serb (ex-Yugoslavian) army was doing to the numerous Croatian towns and villages. This only had a significant effect after they attacked Dubrovnik, deliberately destroying Croatian cultural heritage.

Furthermore, there are strong historical ties between Serbia and some other European countries, like France and Britain (World War I allies and what not). This reflected on the position French elites took towards Croatia. Some high ranking British diplomats were also notably pro-Serb. As far as I know, Margaret Thatcher was pro-Croat though

Russians don't count as western, but let's mention Greeks. Their media was completely pro-Serb.

Add to this many leftists all around the world, seeing Yugoslavia, probably the best implementation of communism ever, being destroyed by Croatia and Slovenia, while Serbs are attempting to prevent it.

So no, there was not overwhelming support for Croatia during the conflicts. I am not sure about the media, I did not watch foreign media too much. Our media carried many of the negative articles from foreign press, creating the impression that Serb propaganda is alive and well.

	01-04-2004 22:24									#186
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You are right to mention that Croatia didn't get a highly favourable profile in the west. The main beneficiaries of the propaganda war were the Bosnian Muslims and Kosovo Albanians.

Until the Bosnian Croats had their arms twisted into joining with the Muslims they got blamed for all the grief in Mostar for example, and the selective Indictees hauled before the show trials in The Hague are only Serbs and Croats. The only Muslim ISTR facing charges was the one who lead the anti-fundamentalist Muslims who fought on the Serbian side in Bosnia (forgotten his name). Guys like Nasser Oric just don't make a blip on Carla's radar, apparantly.

By presenting all Balkan Muslims as innocent, passive victims of Serbo-Croat aggression, the west has helped inflamed the sense of victimisation felt by many muslims - particularly in the west. This sense of victimhood is central to the current of radicalised Islamists who, as we know, feel entitled to murder as many western civilians as possible in their self-righteous 'suicide therapy'.

	01-04-2004 22:30									#187
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quote: By presenting all Balkan Muslims as innocent, passive victims of Serbo-Croat aggression, the west has helped inflamed the sense of victimisation felt by many muslims - particularly in the west. This sense of victimhood is central to the current of radicalised Islamists who, as we know, feel entitled to murder as many western civilians as possible in their self-righteous 'suicide therapy'.

You know, I do find it irritating that in all the current hubub about my country's ****ing around in the ME, we/the West get ZERO credit in the Muslim press for sticking up for the Kosovar Muslims. It's always all about how awful it is when the big bad US invades and mucks around in someone elses' country (I generally agree, btw). I wonder what they said back when we bombed Serbia? The only references to it in the past couple of years that I've seen go on about how reluctant we were to intervene while the Kosovars were being slaughtered, etc, etc.

-Arrian

	01-04-2004 23:46									#188
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To tell the truth, Bosnian Muslims (they style themselves Bosnjaci (Bosniaks) which is different from Bosanci (Bosnians), a title all three ethnicities sometimes use), have been the most naive side of these wars.

They were the most unprepared and I believe they also suffered the most casaulties. both in relative and in absolute terms. It is not a coincidence. Bosnian Muslims were not the main separatist force trying to dissolve Yugoslavia. That was Slovenians and Croats.

Alija Izetbegovic, their leader at the time, was a something of an Islamic fanatic. I think he spent some time in jail during the communist rule, for writing a book named "Islamic disertation" or such. He looked like a moderate to me on TV, and I never heard or read about him speak fanatically like Osama and such freaks do, but apparently he did think Islam needs to make a comeback in Bosnia.

He however, certainly did not start the war. I doubt he was even shrewd enough to anticipate it may break out in Bosnia too after it started in Croatia. As a result, Serbs took Muslim population in Bosnia by surprise.

	01-04-2004 23:48									#189
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Arrian, you are right. Clinton administration did a lot of good for the Muslims in the Balkans, even if it did wrong to Muslims elsewhere (like bombing Sudan farmaceutical factoy).

It should be acknowledged, and I am sure the beneficiaries remember it well.

	01-04-2004 23:50									#190
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quote: It should be acknowledged, and I am sure the beneficiaries remember it well.

Do they now. Isn't it these benificiaries that recently attacked the KFOR?

If they are remembering, they've clearly come to conclusions other than what liberal westerners wanted (oh, we're saved, let's be nice little democractic liberals and *not* go take revenge on the serbs!).

-Arrian

	02-04-2004 05:25									#191
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Alija Izetbegovic, their leader at the time, was a something of an Islamic fanatic. I think he spent some time in jail during the communist rule, for writing a book named "Islamic disertation" or such. He looked like a moderate to me on TV, and I never heard or read about him speak fanatically like Osama and such freaks do, but apparently he did think Islam needs to make a comeback in Bosnia.

Q : What's the difference between Alija Izetbegovic and Osama bin Laden?
A : A suit, a shave, and a haircut.

'The Islamic Declaration' was his book and in it he says

quote: "It is not in fact possible for there to be any peace or coexistence between ‘the Islamic Religion’ and non-Islamic social and political institutions…".

Hardly a moderate.

In WW2 he recruited for the Handzhar (meaning Scimitar) division of the SS, raised from the Bosnian Muslims by Hajj Amin al-Husseini - aka the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, ally of Hitler, creator of Fatah and ideological mentor to Yasser Arafat.

Here is Himmler admiring Izetbegovic's handiwork:

	02-04-2004 05:51									#192
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As far as Kosovo and Islamism goes, I think it's important to stress that the Albanian extremists are not driven by religion, but ethno-nationalism. Mujahedin assisted the KLA in both Kosovo and Macedonia, but have no real influence on Albanian politics.

OBL did fund the KLA , but the attacks on KFOR and non-Albanians were nationalist-driven, rather than Islamist.

	02-04-2004 06:59									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Why are Greeks even allowed in Kosovo with their long standing support of Slobodan Milosevich who massacred Albanians?

grow a brain

	02-04-2004 07:14									#194
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quote: As soon as hostilities started, you had Serbs exploiting the fact that NDH existed in World War II, labeling the newly independant Croatia as a fascist state created for genocide. This had a big media effect, and the ripples are still felt, even in this thread (you mentioned it).

it didn't help that the Croats used a flag similar to the Usteche emblem (NAZI COLLABORATORS WHOSE BRUTALITY MADE SS OFFICERS SICK TO THEIR STOMACHS)

	03-04-2004 01:32									#195
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I found your sources Cort

http://emperors-clothes.com/gilwhite/alija1.htm
http://emperors-clothes.com/gilwhite/alija2.htm

	03-04-2004 01:42									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Sava it didn't help that the Croats used a flag similar to the Usteche emblem (NAZI COLLABORATORS WHOSE BRUTALITY MADE SS OFFICERS SICK TO THEIR STOMACHS)

Sava I yawn in your general direction

Here is a page where you can acquint yourself with history of Croatian flag.

http://zeljko-heimer-fame.from.hr/descr/hr-hist.html

	03-04-2004 01:51									#197
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Cort, I don't have time to go through all that text now.

The point is this: war in Bosnia was not a religious war.

Bosnian muslims (Bosniaks) are probably still the most secular muslims in the world, and this is after they have been significantly radicalized during the war.

Croats and Serbs - religious?



Hardly.

	03-04-2004 03:33									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus Here is Himmler admiring Izetbegovic's handiwork:

So now Nazi pics count as arguments. Congrats, you really managed to kill this thread

	03-04-2004 03:36									#199
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Godwin the thread, my Kraut friend.

	03-04-2004 03:41									#200
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Yeah But I thought that's the same