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Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > Riots in Kosovo. Albanians attack Greek peacekeepers
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Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
Prince

Oct 2000
time: 07:34
  Old Post 20-03-2004 21:43 Visit Bereta_Eder's homepage!
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I can only tell you how it looked like from Greece which was in a... "nedadverse" at that time and about that issue (no offence, just a little joke

It seemed that the maximum drive was pushed by Albright and by Blair. Which I think was also a reason of why 17 November chose to assassinate a British and not an American or a German or a French, although there had been bombs by it against embasies including the German and I think the French.

Datajack Franit is offline Datajack Franit
King
Bologna
Aug 2002
time: 06:34
  Old Post 20-03-2004 21:48 Visit Datajack Franit's homepage!
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What a terrible mess.. and I don't see any peace flag-trademark lefty parade for that

Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
Prince

Oct 2000
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  Old Post 20-03-2004 21:49 Visit Bereta_Eder's homepage!
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I think that's because the left feels, predictably, vindicated by the turn of events.

Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
Prince

Oct 2000
time: 07:34
  Old Post 20-03-2004 21:58 Visit Bereta_Eder's homepage!
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An analysis which I read and with which I agree talks about orchastrated attempts by the Albanian extremists to ethnically cleanse and claim Kosovo for their own. The international community has so far failed to instill democracy and tolerance, which is obviously leagues more difficult than toppling Milosevic.

The international community, the analysis said, is called to try and control the situation and object to any kind of more ethnic cleansing and called everyone to contribute to that, something which I think is already being done. And it called for a "short sharp whipping" of the Albanians claiming this would make it clear to them that attempts to ethnic cleanse and do pogroms will not be tolerated. I also think this is needed. The task is immensly difficult seeing as Kosovo is now a black hole of drugs, prostitutes and illegal arms and that has been evolving under the noses of the int. community.

Still according to sources the Albanians do not have many new arms (although they did shell a Serb community trying to hit a hospital) so I'd only hope that this is a good sign for enforcing stability and some rule of law.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:34
  Old Post 20-03-2004 21:59
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quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
I can only tell you how it looked like from Greece which was in a... "nedadverse" at that time and about that issue (no offence, just a little joke

It seemed that the maximum drive was pushed by Albright and by Blair. Which I think was also a reason of why 17 November chose to assassinate a British and not an American or a German or a French, although there had been bombs by it against embasies including the German and I think the French.


No offense, paiktis. The term seems to have been invented by some young posters whose view of history, learned only from very biased texts and teachers, clashes a lot with what I know to have actually happened because I was there at the time.

I think we in the US were given a lot of BS about Kosovo. The more I learn about it, the more I am concerned that we did the wrong thing there. I know that at the time, Kissinger cautioned us to stay out as the animosities among the peoples were irreconcilable and that our intervention would require us to stay there indefinitely.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:34
  Old Post 21-03-2004 00:16
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Is there any American here that sees any reason for the US to continue to be involved in the Balkan mess? I think the Europeans can and should handle that all by themselves.

BeBro is offline BeBro
King
of the Krauts
Mar 2000
time: 06:34
  Old Post 21-03-2004 00:39 Visit BeBro's homepage!
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HA! So you want to appease those who are responsible for the violence there....

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:34
  Old Post 21-03-2004 00:47
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quote:
Originally posted by BeBro
HA! So you want to appease those who are responsible for the violence there....


Who is responsible BeBro?

BeBro is offline BeBro
King
of the Krauts
Mar 2000
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  Old Post 21-03-2004 00:54 Visit BeBro's homepage!
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For the current violence? The hyper-nationalist idiots amongst Serbs and Albanians, who did not learn anything from the past.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:34
  Old Post 21-03-2004 01:07
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BeBro, the problem is that this violence has been ongoing since at least WWII. Whenever they have had the protection of an outside force, the Albanians have gone on a rampage trying to drive out the Serbs.

NATO and UN presence are the cause of the current violence because it enables the Albanians.

player1 is offline player1
King
Belgrade, YU
Sep 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 21-03-2004 05:01
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At this moment, in last few days, the things that are happening can't be described in any way then "ethnic cleansing".

Churches burned, homes burned, people killed and driven away from thier homes. And those survived would probably never be able to come back (and will live as refugess in Serbia).

And saying that all that happend because of 3 drowned Albanain boys is outrageous. Epecially consideing that in that region there are no more Serbs left.

This is long planned and cordinated action by by Albainian extemistic fractions. How else to explain massive exodus of non-Albanians.

And UN can barly keep things from escalating further.


In 1999, there were around 300,000 non-albainans in Kosovo (including Serbs).
After the intervention only around 100,000 have left.

Now after these events, I guess it won't be a problem for Albanians to say that Kosovo is their alone.


I can't even imagine what would happened in Kosovo got independence few years ago.

I guess that in that case, ther would be no non-Albanians left at all (since there would be no UN to protect them).

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 21-03-2004 05:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
BeBro, the problem is that this violence has been ongoing since at least WWII. Whenever they have had the protection of an outside force, the Albanians have gone on a rampage trying to drive out the Serbs.

NATO and UN presence are the cause of the current violence because it enables the Albanians.

So, I guess you think NATO and UN should have never attempted to protect the Albanians of Kosovo?

player1 is offline player1
King
Belgrade, YU
Sep 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 21-03-2004 05:12
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After this events, I don't see a future for Serbs (and other non-Albanians) in Kosovo.

Current plan, promoted by UN proved to be failure.
Minorities at Kosovo don't have a chance to live a decent life.

I can only hope if areas mostly populated by non-Albanians could get some sort of automony, so they could live a normal life.

But, I doubt that could happen. There is too much pride in US and Europe countries to admit that they are wrong.

player1 is offline player1
King
Belgrade, YU
Sep 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 21-03-2004 05:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor

So, I guess you think NATO and UN should have never attempted to protect the Albanians of Kosovo?


If only they could protect the Serbs after they occupied a Kosovo...

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 21-03-2004 05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by player1
But, I doubt that could happen. There is too much pride in US and Europe countries to admit that they are wrong.

It's not exactly that, at least not with peacekkeping missions. Europe and the US are too blind to understand that they are wrong. Once they end up getting it (too late), they do try to correct the situation.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 21-03-2004 05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by player1
If only they could protect the Serbs after they occupied a Kosovo...

To that effect, we should have understood that the UCK was nothing more than an extremist terrorist group, instead of taking them for liberators at the beginning, and have them frame the postwar policial situation of Kosovo

player1 is offline player1
King
Belgrade, YU
Sep 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 21-03-2004 05:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor

So, I guess you think NATO and UN should have never attempted to protect the Albanians of Kosovo?


doulbe standards

When UCK began as terrorist movment (mostly attacking Serbian civilians), and Serbs responded militray, it was Serbs fault.

But, if something similar happens in Israel, then it's completly different thing.


EDIT:
Only after the bombs felt Albanians started massivly to leave Kosovo.

So, if there was a will, thing could have been solved witout bombings.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 21-03-2004 05:25
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Player1:
I actually agree with you. The situation was bad in Kosovo before the bombings, but it suddenly became worse as the bombings begun. I was against the war in Kosovo, and I still am (although I strongly support the idea of having peacekeepers there).

The fact that the West treated the UCK as a valid discussion partner, and then as a valid military partner, is extremely wrong, and is one of the keys to the Kosovo failure.

Don't get me wrong: I have nothing against the idea that Kosovo should be autonomous from Belgrade. The expectations of the Albanian population of Kosovo are obviously different from the expectations of the Serbs in Serbia. I don't think a centralized rule could really help.
But an autonomous Kosovo requires real democrats at the helm, and not extremists and mafiosis pulling the strings

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:34
  Old Post 21-03-2004 06:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor

So, I guess you think NATO and UN should have never attempted to protect the Albanians of Kosovo?


I am leaning heavily in that direction. I think we were lied to by Clark, Albright and Blair for some reason. I am now prepared to believe the other side's contentions that Serbia was battling the KLA, not conducting genocide.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:34
  Old Post 21-03-2004 06:55
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quote:
Originally posted by player1
After this events, I don't see a future for Serbs (and other non-Albanians) in Kosovo.

Current plan, promoted by UN proved to be failure.
Minorities at Kosovo don't have a chance to live a decent life.

I can only hope if areas mostly populated by non-Albanians could get some sort of automony, so they could live a normal life.

But, I doubt that could happen. There is too much pride in US and Europe countries to admit that they are wrong.


Not really. This is one American who is listening.

player1 is offline player1
King
Belgrade, YU
Sep 2001
time: 06:34
  Old Post 21-03-2004 14:13
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Thanks!

BeBro is offline BeBro
King
of the Krauts
Mar 2000
time: 06:34
  Old Post 21-03-2004 16:38 Visit BeBro's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
NATO and UN presence are the cause of the current violence because it enables the Albanians.


That is irrational. Currently NATO and UN try to control things. Without them violence between the groups would be much more extreme, with much worse consequences especially for the Serb minority.

East Street Trader is offline East Street Trader
Prince
London, United Kingdom
Jun 2000
time: 05:34
  Old Post 22-03-2004 16:35
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There are no quick fixes.

Despite relatively few of them living there Serbs regard Kosovo as their heartland, for historical reasons.

If Albania was expanded to take in Kosovo - the lid would come off, in the short term, and for the long term, another bitter grievance would have been added to the mountain that already exist.

There is only one thing to do for now. The peacekeeping troops stay indefinately with the world (or those within it willing to help out) doing its best to share the burden. And the neighbours of these people must take every opportunity to emphasise to individuals and to representative groups or institutions that the world will not tolerate endless squabbling and that the squabbling will prevent anyone from improving their lot.

I don't know whether it will take one century for these simple messages to get home or two or more. But that is what requires to be done.

As the Kosovan people indulge in extensive smuggling and other crime as well as race riots the international community must tackle crime in Kosovo as well as more straightforward peace-keeping.

And while this is being done no one gets to take sides.

The people have been separating out into more and more segregated groups. Majority groups have been pressurising minority groups to clear out and minority groups have been retreating into ghettos the better to resist. That seems to be what happens in such cases.

The peace-keeping forces must strive to protect everyone, wherever they are but, being realistic I doubt they will manage to do more than to slow the process down a bit and make the separating out a bit less bloody.

When I lived in Cyprus at the beginning of that process in that country, the British - and afterwards the UN - forces used to paint a line through each town delineating where the Greek Cypriot quarter ended and the Turkish Cypriot quarter began. And there were curfews and patrols and "demilitarised zones" and so on. But, in the end, each side withdrew to their own portion of the island.

Maybe this is something that just has to happen in the long story of how these things eventually resolve themselves?

Meanwhile we must stick to the main thing - just staunchly to refuse to take sides.

Dr Strangelove is offline Dr Strangelove
King
USA
Jan 1970
time: 00:34
  Old Post 22-03-2004 18:26
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Could be cuz, try as they might, they still haven't found evidence that the Serbs massacred any Albanians.


I suppose that mass graves don't count. They also still haven't found evicence of Soviet massacres of Polish officers and Russian Kulaks either, right?

Datajack Franit is offline Datajack Franit
King
Bologna
Aug 2002
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  Old Post 22-03-2004 19:52 Visit Datajack Franit's homepage!
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quote:
I think we in the US were given a lot of BS about Kosovo



I am afraid to say that this is becoming kinda of a silly excuse for the US messing around and doubling troubles worldwide- I'm not antiamerican (not AT ALL) but just think what kind of opinion people in Europe have about the US after this disaster

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:34
  Old Post 22-03-2004 19:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Datajack Franit



I am afraid to say that this is becoming kinda of a silly excuse for the US messing around and doubling troubles worldwide- I'm not antiamerican (not AT ALL) but just think what kind of opinion people in Europe have about the US after this disaster
Europe was completely blameless in the affair.

VetLegion is offline VetLegion
Prince

Sep 1999
time: 06:34
  Old Post 23-03-2004 00:11
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East Street Trader:

quote:
Serb, Croat and ethnic albanian are locked in a bitterness so deep that they just are not going to get on together.

Economic well being is the only cure for this. If the region can get a decent economy going, self interest will bring about co-operation. And maybe a few hands will be less idle.


Countries of ex Yugoslavia were economically extremely dependant on each other and there was huge economic exchange between them. This however did not stop the war(s).

Ned:

May I speculate that your views changed since you have been reading emperors-clothes.com (you linked to it in one of your posts)?

That site is totaly worthless and you should not believe anything you read there.

VetLegion is offline VetLegion
Prince

Sep 1999
time: 06:34
  Old Post 23-03-2004 00:16
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And some things about Kosovo you may not understand. Albanians were a majority there for decades and yet somwhere about 100% of policemen in the region were Serbian. How do you people explain that?

Or the fact that Kosovo had an autonomy in Yugoslavia, under Tito, however Milosevic revoked that autonomy in 1989 (or so).

In Yugoslavia you had an Albanian majority in Kosovo demanding more and more rights Serbs weren't willing to give.

I am only mentioning this because people seem to have distorted perception about who bossed who around in Kosovo for last 50 years. Serbs bossed everyone else and basta.

VetLegion is offline VetLegion
Prince

Sep 1999
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  Old Post 23-03-2004 00:23
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Oh yeah, paiktis you forgot to mention Serbs burnt the mosques in Belgrade and Nis.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:34
  Old Post 23-03-2004 01:05
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The long term solution is to redraw the boundries so that ethnic groups all more or less reside in the "right" countries. Of course the UN will do its damnedest to prevent that out of fear it will spark wars. One thing is clear though and that is the current artifical status of Kosovo and Bosnia won't last without outside armies forcing them to work together.

 
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