19-03-2004 01:12									#91
	Re: Re: Young, fresh, ambitious, in massive debt Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious quote: Originally posted by GePap A minor summary for the lazy: Young people in the US leave college with an average debt of 20k, and are likely never to be out of debt again once they get low paying beginning jobs, a mortage, health care costs and so forth. Just another reason why the economic growth of the last 3 decades or so is unsustainable.

Again, I return to what should be considered debt. Is it simply an obligation to pay something? In that case, no one is ever out of debt - housing costs, health care costs, the need to buy food - these things always exist. If you look at net debt, then it shouldn't be that hard for the majority of people to get into a positive situation.

	19-03-2004 06:53									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi "1. The private universities in the US are generally better than the public ones - in the case of the more prestigious universities, MUCH better." The difference in quality is often over-exaggerated however, and even in the case of the Ivy Leauge schools, there isn't a right for the government to provide that; if you want to go to a place like that you can fund the education yourself.

Why did I say there was? I was just disputing Spiffor's claim that private universities sucked.

	19-03-2004 06:55									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Why did I say there was? I was just disputing Spiffor's claim that private universities sucked.

This was a misunderstanding. I never claimed private universities sucked. At the contrary, the fact that top education is only provided by private university is a big problem I have with your educaiton system.

	19-03-2004 06:55									#94
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Actually, the top flaship schools compare quite favorably with the top private schools, in most fields anyway. You can find crappy directional schools, but you can just as easily find crappy private schools, the difference is that the crappy private schools will bleed you like they're top schools.

Uh, no. UVA is one of the best public universities in the country, but it simply doesn't compare to Harvard or MIT.

	19-03-2004 06:56									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor This was a misunderstanding. I never claimed private universities sucked. At the contrary, the fact that top education is only provided by private university is a big problem I have with your educaiton system.

Would you rather no top education be provided at all?

	19-03-2004 07:00									#96
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quote: Did these massive debts at least cover your living expenses

Yes.

quote: the fact that top education is only provided by private university is a big problem I have with your educaiton system.

Why? They have more money than private universities to provide much better educational oppertunities. It doesn't mean that public universities aren't good either, but because they have to charge less (and get less alumni money), naturally their education won't be as good.

	19-03-2004 07:02									#97
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I think taxes are here to allow some public universities to provide the best education possible, for whomever is able to sustain it.

I know it is hard for you two to swallow, the idea that taxes can pay for education

	19-03-2004 07:02									#98
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Plus, the selection even for private universities is (generally - yes there are exceptions, but that's what they are, exception) merit-based. Especially given the need-blind application process a lot of them are getting.

Almost anyone who can get into one of those top private colleges will find a way to fund it.

	19-03-2004 07:18									#99
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quote: Again, I return to what should be considered debt. Is it simply an obligation to pay something?

That's a liability, and yes it can be considered debt.

quote: In that case, no one is ever out of debt - housing costs, health care costs, the need to buy food - these things always exist.

True, but that doesn't put you in debt if your income is unable to pay for this.

quote: If you look at net debt, then it shouldn't be that hard for the majority of people to get into a positive situation.

True.

Me, I guess there is really two was to look at debt.

1) You earn less in a year than your yearly expenses. This is how most people handle/address their cash flows and this in turn effects their spending habits that leads them to the realization of debt. EARNing money requires someone else to be giving it to you, which is not in your control. The minute some is laid off, a tragedy strikes the familly, etc... earnings may cease to exist, and all of a sudden, BAM!, their yearly expenses out weight their yearly income. Thus, now they say, they are in debt.

2) Your Assets are worth less than you Liabilities, or you make less from your Net Worth than you spend. MAKEing money does not require anyone else; bank, employeer, etc... If you get laid off, no biggy, your covered. This is how I look at debt, because it really says you owe more than your worth, and this is why a home is a liability.

If people looked at their expenses and spending habits per definition 2 they would never spend more than they can afford, and will have no problem with becoming wealthy. Granted I make a decent income, but for my area I am in the bottom decile of my braket, and the cost of living here sucks. However, by looking at my expenses from a "Net Worth" point of few instead of an "income" point of view I feel that I am slowly hedging my way out of lower middle class....

	19-03-2004 07:33									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Uh, no. UVA is one of the best public universities in the country, but it simply doesn't compare to Harvard or MIT.

I'm looking at the big picture. Sure the top 3 schools in nearly every field are private. However, after that its pretty even public vs. private. Just a quick glance at the top 50 in various fields according to US news will show you that and Michigan, cal, UCLA, UVA compare very favorably in most areas with the top private schools. Though I am a bit biased, I earned degrees at 2 flagships and my wife is mid-way through a phd at a 3rd.

	19-03-2004 07:39									#101
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quote: I think taxes are here to allow some public universities to provide the best education possible, for whomever is able to sustain it.

There is NO WAY that any public university could match the money that a Harvard gets. If it did so, then many less public universities would exist, especially because higher tax rates are not very popular. Either that or the rest of the public universities in the state would be severly underfunded to only have one good one (many states have more than one good university).

quote: Almost anyone who can get into one of those top private colleges will find a way to fund it.

Yep... almost 50% of admitted students at Princeton get a full ride.

	19-03-2004 08:32									#102
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quote: Sure the top 3 schools in nearly every field are private.

Depends what you mean by top. I certainly wouldn't want to go to a huge "top" school and pay good money to get taught by grad students etc...

	19-03-2004 08:40									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko Depends what you mean by top. I certainly wouldn't want to go to a huge "top" school and pay good money to get taught by grad students etc...

well, that's a factor of course. I was using the Us News as a basis, as that seems (unfortunately) to be the standard. I hate grad student instructors as well, luckily I've only had them for intro classes at undergrad. Some big schools just farm out the work to their ta's, ridiculous.

	19-03-2004 09:53									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Almost anyone who can get into one of those top private colleges will find a way to fund it. Yep... almost 50% of admitted students at Princeton get a full ride.

Wow, the experience of ONE university in the system with a huge endowment..means ****. I went to a top 20 school, and I knew few people getting a free ride, few people whom their parents could pay the whole way. IN fact, all the people I knew had substantial loans- of course, being a top 20 university and haviong a huge endowment ARE NOT the same thing.

As for quality- how good your education is I would say is absed on 4 things- 1. the resources made available to you, such as facilities, research materials and so forth 2. the structure of the program you are in 3.the quality of your colleges 4. the Quality of your prefessors.

The selectiveness of ivy leagues helps with #3, and their greater resources with the toher three BUT that is only in general- in reality though, it is impossible to say any one individual will definitely get a better education in one location over another-if the guy who goes to community college gets a young but utterly brilliant and motivated professor he might get a far better education that some studwent in an aIvy with a famous but past his prime and cynical lecturer.

	19-03-2004 10:00									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Spot on. IMO, you have to keep the mindset that if need be, you dump the place and pull your money out. In the meantime, you at least have something to show for your monthy housing costs in the form of built up equity. Rent is just flushing money down the drain.

Depends on the interest rate and length of payment period, you end up paying for multiple houses at the end.

	19-03-2004 15:06									#106
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quote: I hate grad student instructors as well, luckily I've only had them for intro classes at undergrad.

Ya, my University was good that way. Its basically an oversized liberal arts school (2,800+ students) with only a few grad students (and none in the Social Sciences so I never saw one in class) so you're not claustrophobically small but at the same time you've got plenty of resources and pretty much all the profs in your department end up knowing exactly who you are, what your thesis is about etc. etc.

	20-03-2004 06:06									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko Depends what you mean by top. I certainly wouldn't want to go to a huge "top" school and pay good money to get taught by grad students etc...

Than history class I tookl once the first half of the year than female grad student taught it as the proffor was in the hospital. She was a great teacher knew how to get idears across in a clear simple way in the class room. When the regulate teacher came back he was lousy smell of alcohol on his breach, make dirty sexly joke and remark in the classroom, make passes in a crude manner at female student in the class which huminaith then to no end.

	20-03-2004 08:27									#108
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quote: Originally posted by CharlesBHoff Than history class I tookl once the first half of the year than female grad student taught it as the proffor was in the hospital. She was a great teacher knew how to get idears across in a clear simple way in the class room. When the regulate teacher came back he was lousy smell of alcohol on his breach, make dirty sexly joke and remark in the classroom, make passes in a crude manner at female student in the class which huminaith then to no end.

That sounds pretty bad. In university I had lots of profs and only three truely bad ones. All three were visiting profs and I'm sure that the huge mass of negative student feedback led to them not staying any longer (my school's one of the places where good visiting professors stay as long as 16 years if they're well-liked).

Oh wait, I actually did have one grad student. It was my frosh year calc section. Really nice girl who obviously new what she was talking about, but she had a thick enough Chinese accent that I really had to struggle to understand what she was saying. It ended up being easier to teach myself Calculus so I mostly stopped going to class and eneded up doing fine on the tests...

	20-03-2004 09:12									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Depends on the interest rate and length of payment period, you end up paying for multiple houses at the end.

As opposed to rent which gets you exactly what at the end?

	20-03-2004 14:00									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko That sounds pretty bad. In university I had lots of profs and only three truely bad ones. All three were visiting profs and I'm sure that the huge mass of negative student feedback led to them not staying any longer (my school's one of the places where good visiting professors stay as long as 16 years if they're well-liked). Oh wait, I actually did have one grad student. It was my frosh year calc section. Really nice girl who obviously new what she was talking about, but she had a thick enough Chinese accent that I really had to struggle to understand what she was saying. It ended up being easier to teach myself Calculus so I mostly stopped going to class and eneded up doing fine on the tests...

Wouldnot get rid of proff as he have tensure and it was 1973. He would many time say in fornet of than entire class to than A female student with big breast it you want than A you must sleep with me. Now day with remarks like these he would be dismiss from his job, some political correction is needed but not too much.

	20-03-2004 14:06									#111
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I forget all the female student along with most of the male student call him that Dirly Old French Man as he came from French and try to play the Great French Lover. One of the female student who came from French told us that we wherenot insulting the French people as they would have called him than Dirly Old Man anyway and the female of French wouldnot have tolance his behaviour at all.