20-03-2004 04:59									#1
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Rusty from the inactivity (almost 6 months if not more without Civ ) I wanted to regain the basics of the game and I started to surf the Strat forum.

Taking in consideration Stu's "Making the most of Specials" ( ) and the reply of rah ( ), I wondered if anybody started a game with the idea of using a "twin cities" empire: building two cities one next to the other and considering it as one single city.

Could this lead to some beneifts? (i.e. sharing the defender, intracity trading, exchanging specials, food caravan trading)...





(edited minor typo)

	20-03-2004 16:43									#2
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Now if they were on opposite sides of the date line ....

	20-03-2004 17:14									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Now if they were on opposite sides of the date line ....

	20-03-2004 19:35									#4
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can you get around the cities being right next to each other limit if they're on opposite sides of the IDL?

	22-03-2004 01:38									#5
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Sounds like Dallas-FtWorth...

A city on one side of the IDL will not be blocked from using the same tiles as one on the other side, so they could share specials. You won't get four, but you might get two or even three. The IDL breaks the special pattern.

	22-03-2004 01:49									#6
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and FB - a qualified YES -- I have seen the AI do this, but not actually performed the feat myself

Stu

	22-03-2004 01:55									#7
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... but I just tried it and failed

	22-03-2004 04:00									#8
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The AI always builds there second city 4 squares from their first one, if possible. I'm not sure if direction matters. It doesn't matter if there are any other cities next to it.

	23-03-2004 16:11									#9
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are you sure its four squares.....i get confused with the way squares are counted....to me it seems as if they are three away...

as for twin cities , rarely have i had the luxury in MP to make that work, certainly not for my capital and second city....though that would be a great feat.

	23-03-2004 18:33									#10
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since the IDL breaks the specials pattern, I wonder if it's possible to have your first and second city with 3 specials each, with one of them shared across the IDL.

When I was first thinking about this idea, I wasn't thinking about the pattern breaking, and was imagining a small peninsula with a 4 square special on the end, and the second city built on the gold mountain across the IDL on the continent side. city 2 then becomes an almost invincible defender for city 1. ah, well

What would be the ideal situation to find (or make)?

	24-03-2004 00:15									#11
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Most random maps I have seen, the IDL runs between the land masses. The Map Editor/Generator rarely puts land crossing the equator.

A full special pattern is shaped like this:
......S1..S2..
S3..S4..S5..S6
......S7..S8..
So you can have one city with four specials (S1-S2-S4-S5) and two cities with two (S3-S7 and S6-S8), or two cities with three specials (S1-S3-S4 and S5-S6-S8) a little further apart.

	24-03-2004 05:36									#12
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Attention, please !
'Twin Cities' is a Trade Mark of La Fayette

Read this:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=30992

	24-03-2004 06:02									#13
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quote: Originally posted by War4ever are you sure its four squares.....i get confused with the way squares are counted....to me it seems as if they are three away... as for twin cities , rarely have i had the luxury in MP to make that work, certainly not for my capital and second city....though that would be a great feat.

I'm pretty sure it's four squares, but I'm not sure how it's counted.

	24-03-2004 17:25									#14
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In one MP game, I started on the line, on one of those 2 square narrow land bridges. I was able to place my first two cities so that they were both able to use the same two whales. Needless to say, I researched map making early.

	25-03-2004 00:10									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Father Beast can you get around the cities being right next to each other limit if they're on opposite sides of the IDL?

Thinking about this I remembered your earlier thread about this. I used your save and removed two cities to get to this position. If you try to build city, you will be told "not allowed".

So, no, one cannot use the IDL to build cities on ajoining tiles, each on different sides of the IDL.

Monk

	25-03-2004 17:07									#16
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Ah, Well, it was worth a try. Still, SG reports he's seeen the AI do it on occaision, but I'm not sure of the circumstances. Have cities right next to each other, that is.

situations like Rah's where both cities can use the same two specials approaces the ideal. I wonder if it's possible to get it so both cities have 4 specials, with 2 being shared

	25-03-2004 18:44									#17
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Unlikely but I guess possible. You must first determine map sizes that would make it possible. It would have to be the right width for the pattern to wrap properly, but they would still have to match up and down on the wrap.

	25-03-2004 22:27									#18
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While you're at it, why not work for five specials? Doesn't the dateline occaisionally offer that benefit?

	26-03-2004 14:54									#19
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Although I suspect a 'proof of impossibility' may be very difficult to obtain - much effort has been spent over the years trying to achieve this (a five special site on the idl)with absolutely no success

Stu

	26-03-2004 20:39									#20
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Closest I ever came playing with MapEditor:

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=21954_Civ5special.jpg

	27-03-2004 07:50									#21
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It is definite that more than four specials is impossible. Here is a quasi-proof:

If there are four on one side of the dateline, then the closest a fifth special could be is one vertical row next to the furthest west or east special, but no squares in that vertical row are usable by the city site.

It's only a little more complicated if one tries to put three specials on one side of the Date Line and two on the other, but for starters, the only square available to get three specials is the normal central square. The closest the dateline can be is two vertical rows away. Inspecting the 6 possible placements for 2 reachable specials is easy and eliminates all possibilities.

QED

	28-03-2004 23:39									#22
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I have been able to approach the ideal in this way, with two cities with one square between them. One city has four specials, the other has three. made with the map editor, of course.

I have attached a save file from a game I was playing on this map. as you can see, Washington has 2 wine, a buffalo and a coal. New York shares a wine and the coal with Washington, and also has a whale. there is another special to the south, but just out of New York's area.

it seems to me that both cities can grow rather large, and share 8 land squares (and one ocean, but that doesn't take improvements) that only need improving once for each city to take advantage of them.

Attachment: zz_b3200.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	29-03-2004 19:31									#23
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Yeah, some people claimed 5, but I always thought it was impossible. I'm glad to hear others concur.