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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:34
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Not the tactics of it, but the strategy and carrying them out. |
He was carrying out terracts in a wheel chair?  But yeah, I meant the tactics. He personally wasn't the type to be involved in the mechanics of an individual terract, so killing him isn't the sort of thing that is effective in, say, stopping an imminent terract.
quote:
I am telling you that you wouldn't be able to take him out with a sniper, and you suggest to "simply arrest him"? |
Why do you say that? It's not like he could immediatley hightail it out of wherever he's staying when the Israelis come knocking.
quote:
this may be true. But the only thing he did is to channel the terror. For example, he was the one saying that harming jews abroad might not be a good idea, as well as opposed to direct conflict with the PA |
He did toy with the idea of a truce. I'm just saying that you don't stop any terracts with this, you piss a lot of Pals off, so why do something this?
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:34
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quote:
He was carrying out terracts in a wheel chair? But yeah, I meant the tactics. He personally wasn't the type to be involved in the mechanics of an individual terract, so killing him isn't the sort of thing that is effective in, say, stopping an imminent terract |
I wanted to say the strategy of carriyng them out ( like timing wrt politics, public opinion, etc. ), He certainly was more than "spiritual guidance" for the Hamas.
quote:
Why do you say that? It's not like he could immediatley hightail it out of wherever he's staying when the Israelis come knocking. |
Why not?
For the IDF to "come knocking" they'll have to pass through 2 miles of dense residential neighbourhoods, and that hardly can go unnoticed, if you know what I mean. by the time, he could be very far away, and doing a house to house search in Gaza could shed FAR more blood than any such kill.
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CharlesBHoff
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el paso texas
May 2002
time: 05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Solomwi
Um, Pax, it's a war, not pin the tail on the donkey. In Israel's shoes, that's exactly what I would think. Unreasonable would be to expect Israel to give up such an advantage, or to not press to extend it as far as humanly possible. |
That why Israel is loseing the public opion war. It was illegal to created Israel from other people land. The Pal people go way back in history before the father of the Jew so Israel have no valid claim on the land and where is the deed to the land. The Pal have deed for the land from the Ott Empire, the Brit Empire which Israel consider illegality not blinding. They are missding the point those deed are legal blinding as they are legal paper draw up in the legal manner while Israel have no deed, the bibble isnot than legal paper and cannot be a deed.
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Guardian
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Bergen, Norway
Feb 2001
time: 06:34
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I don't really care who were there first and who did what to whom hundreds or even thousands of years ago. It really does not matter. What matters is the here and now, and the hours, days, weeks, months and years that are still ahead of us. People can't change their past, but they can improve the present and build a better future.
The thing is... This land - much like any other land - is home to many different people. I don't care how they got there. They are there now, it is their home and they all have a right to be there.
That is - they all have the right to be there if they respect the fact that the land is home to other people too and that these other people also have a right to be there - even if they did come later. The land is not that small - there actually is room for everyone if they're willing to share with each other.
In other words: They all have a right to live there, but they do not have a right to destroy each other's homes or "push each other into the sea", etc.
Shimon Perez once said that the people of the Middle East were all in the same boat, and that they could either sail together or sink together.
I think that pretty much sums it up.
And it seems to me that people on all sides in this conflict still appear determined to sink together. Sad but true.
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:34
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
NOt really. While it was the Arabs who first resorted to armed violence, it is not like there was "peaceful" coexistance- think why most Brit. whitepapers writen during their mandate (and all the time as they prepared to create a Jewish homeland) were not very positive about the zionists. For exmaple, the zionist labor movement boycotted any Jewish business that dared employ Arabs "with jewish money", sop as more efficient modern industry built with foreing investment drove the arab artisans out of work, they could not find work at these new factories becuase the owners were bullied into employing only jews, not arabs. As you may guess, this created mass resentment among the ranks of the now unemployed or impoverished.
Think of it this way-imagine any town USA- a group of immigrants starts coming into town-they don;t really hang out-they keep to themselves a lot, and little by little they begin to build a parallel town-then, with outside investment they begin to take hold of the economy, but they do not allow the intial and much more numerous inhabitant to share equally. Add ot this that you know the aim of these new immigrants is to make the town THEIR town, a town for them-with you having rights fine, but the town is still for THEM. Now tell me if you think the original inhabitants will be happy with this sort of outcome? |
God this sounds exactly like the history of almost every city in the U.S., except that the original inhabitants had enough cultural capital to keep from getting pushed out. The difference is that the Arabs did not have the capability to compete with the European Jews, nor the fexibility to adapt.
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CharlesBHoff
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el paso texas
May 2002
time: 05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Guardian
That depends on who you're talking to. Many will argue that Israel is actually winning the public opinion war, on the grounds that Israel has never had a stated goal to destroy the Palestinians or physically force them out of the region.
Yes, some bad things happened when the state of Israel was created and yes, a lot of bad things have been done in Israel's name. But seeking to destroy Israel is not a solution and never will be. |
Israel is loseing the public opion war as they have a state goal of killing all Pal. They action now and the past show what they state goal is. You judger than nation by they action not they words or state action. And who side are you on anyway.
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:34
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quote:
I wanted to say the strategy of carriyng them out ( like timing wrt politics, public opinion, etc. ), He certainly was more than "spiritual guidance" for the Hamas.
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Right, that's what I meant by politics.
quote:
Why not?
For the IDF to "come knocking" they'll have to pass through 2 miles of dense residential neighbourhoods, and that hardly can go unnoticed, if you know what I mean. by the time, he could be very far away, and doing a house to house search in Gaza could shed FAR more blood than any such kill. |
How fast could a man like that really get out of where he's staying? And if he can't be effectively tracked, how did y'all know where he was in the first place?
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Sikander
God this sounds exactly like the history of almost every city in the U.S., except that the original inhabitants had enough cultural capital to keep from getting pushed out. The difference is that the Arabs did not have the capability to compete with the European Jews, nor the fexibility to adapt. |
Sorry Sikander, but that comparison is ludicrous, for the very reason you are speaking singly about immigration to a single local in an entire land: Jewish immigration begun in the cities and isolated kibbutz's, but again, the aim of the immigrants was the creation of a brand new political entity-NOT simply to becomes part of the polity, and in doing so chaging the overall polity.
The Irish immigrants did not come to create an Irish homeland in the US-they came to become Americans. Ditto for the Italians, Chinese, Poles, Jews, Russians, Hispanics, so forth and so on.
So to TMM's throw way comment-the inhabitants of New Amsterdam got to stay home when the English took power-most palestinians did NOT.
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Zevico
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Melbourne
Apr 2002
time: 15:34
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quote:
Why do they have to fight? |
Well they don't have to. But, call it a hunch, but I think a fight would happen.
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Zevico
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Melbourne
Apr 2002
time: 15:34
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Israel think they are God chosely people than they can do anything. Ask yourself why the Jew where hated and distrust thoughout history by almnost all group of people. |
BINGO! Where's a mod when you need him...
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:34
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Sorry Sikander, but that comparison is ludicrous, for the very reason you are speaking singly about immigration to a single local in an entire land: Jewish immigration begun in the cities and isolated kibbutz's, but again, the aim of the immigrants was the creation of a brand new political entity-NOT simply to becomes part of the polity, and in doing so chaging the overall polity. |
The Jews were immigrating to Palestine, not Israel. Palestine was a much larger entity which was (and still is) overwhelmingly Arab. I do take your point about intention though.
quote:
Originally posted by GePap
The Irish immigrants did not come to create an Irish homeland in the US-they came to become Americans. Ditto for the Italians, Chinese, Poles, Jews, Russians, Hispanics, so forth and so on. |
The Irish came mostly to survive. I doubt that they had much of a notion of the difference in philosophies and governance between the U.S. and Britain, as most were illiterate and many didn't even speak english.
Most of the others came for economic reasons as well, though I'm sure many Jews and some Eastern Europeans came because they hoped for better political conditions. Those seeking better political conditions might well have come because they wanted to be Americans, for the rest it was a means to an end.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:34
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quote:
Most of the others came for economic reasons as well, though I'm sure many Jews and some Eastern Europeans came because they hoped for better political conditions. Those seeking better political conditions might well have come because they wanted to be Americans, for the rest it was a means to an end. |
Right here you point to the very difference: most immigration is driven solely by quality of life concerns, primarily economic. Certainly there was plenty of that in Jews going to the Mandate-but underlying that was an ideological and political movement that also helped immigration along-most immigrant around the world have no "-plans"-they move to make a better life. The Zionist movement did have a plan-to create a Jewish homeland, and Jewish immigration to the Mandate was crucial, given that as you stated, The mandate was overwhelmingly non-Jewish.
This gives the immigration into the Mandate fra greater political significance. IF (improbable but worhtwhile supposition) it became known there was a Chicano organization aided Mexican immigration into the southwest as a means of creating such a demographic balance as to return the southwest to being part of a soverign Mexican nation-what do you think the reaction in the US as a whole would be? (we already have that "genius" Huntington saying the same thing) I think it would be lound, vociferous, and while not likely violent, very antagonistic. Now imagine the WHOLE country was slated to become part of another soverign nation, or "just 50%" of it? Would that sit well with locals?
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24-03-2004 00:33
I am telling you that you wouldn't be able to take him out with a sniper, and you suggest to "simply arrest him"? 
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