23-03-2004 04:15									#211
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Azazel Actually, they were all over the desert. Remember the movie "Lawrence of Arabia"? they attack Aqaba, a city on the southern tip of Jordan. That particular family might not have yielded much power, but there are many more other nomads.

One-a city in souther Jordan-well, if you remember, there were really no lines there-but again, souther jordan, as in not the land occupied by proto-palestinians..

also, yes, there were lots of nomads, and they did NOT particularly suport each other. The Sauds were one family of nomads-way deeper inland, and it was this one tribe that finally ended Hashemite control of the Hejaz and guardianship of Mecca.

	23-03-2004 04:16									#212
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by GePap The probelm with that line of thinking is that the Pals have some wonderful teachers- I mean, it took 1800 years, but the jews made it back, no? After alll, whom in 580 ad would have thought a new Jewish kingdom would veer rise up again around Jerusalem? not to mention 180 ad (or whenever the second revolt was finally crushed)?

Teachers - whom? The Revisionist Zionists, who wanted a state on BOTH banks of the Jordan river, to accomodate the circa 1935 Jewish population of Eastern Europe? Their spiritual descendants, who dont want to withdraw from a single settlement in the West Bank or even Gaza??? On the contrary, Israel was built by visionaries, but by PRAGMATIC visionaries, who were REPEATEDLY willing to settle for half a loaf. The Pals have their Jabotinskys, Sterns, and Begins in abundance (and leaders much worse than any of those) but where are their Ben Gurions, their Arlosoroffs, their Weizmans, their Rabins? When they find them, they will find their way to a state (Im hoping for Dahlan, who seems to have more spine than Abu Mazen)

	23-03-2004 04:21									#213
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Azazel There is no lowering of immideate activity; However, statistics show that the more pressure Israel is putting on the terrorists, the less suicide bombings, and other attacks on civilians take place.

Then, I can understand and probably continue the assasinations if my overall goals were being met. Just remember that this could blow up in Israel's face.
If I were a leader of the Palestinians I would use Israel's assasinations to rally my people. Especially the ones who are on the fence to increase the amount of attacks. I would escalate the conflict until the other side was willing to halt their aggression and talk.

	23-03-2004 04:21									#214
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Teachers - whom? The Revisionist Zionists, who wanted a state on BOTH banks of the Jordan river, to accomodate the circa 1935 Jewish population of Eastern Europe? Their spiritual descendants, who dont want to withdraw from a single settlement in the West Bank or even Gaza??? On the contrary, Israel was built by visionaries, but by PRAGMATIC visionaries, who were REPEATEDLY willing to settle for half a loaf. The Pals have their Jabotinskys, Sterns, and Begins in abundance (and leaders much worse than any of those) but where are their Ben Gurions, their Arlosoroffs, their Weizmans, their Rabins? When they find them, they will find their way to a state (Im hoping for Dahlan, who seems to have more spine than Abu Mazen)

Who said teacher need to be good? And I doubt supporters of Jabotinsky and Begin would agree with your characterization that they did not also help build Israel.

	23-03-2004 04:42									#215
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by GePap Who said teacher need to be good? And I doubt supporters of Jabotinsky and Begin would agree with your characterization that they did not also help build Israel.

They may well have contributed in some measure, but in the final analysis a state was possible because the leadership WAS willing to take half a loaf.

	23-03-2004 04:47									#216
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Interesting digression.

However, not one word about the craveness of Britain and France for condemning this great event; and how spineless Bush has been for providing in effect "no comment."

Is there anyone in the world who knows right from wrong and who stands boldly on the side of the right?

The leaders of the world, other than Sharon, are really something.

BTW, did Kerry's people say anything on this?

	23-03-2004 04:50									#217
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by GePap Who said teacher need to be good? And I doubt supporters of Jabotinsky and Begin would agree with your characterization that they did not also help build Israel.

Look, youre saying the Jews waited for 1800 years to get a state, and they finally got one so why should the Pals settle for a compromise. Fine. So let them cut a deal for Gaza and 94% of the West Bank now, and KEEP THEIR DREAMS of taking the whole area. Dictating peoples dreams is NOT within the realm of liberal politics. What im interested in is not their dreams, which are their own, but their actions. The ACTIONS I expect are a territorial compromise, one that gives them a viable state but recognizes theyre NOT going to get all they might have gotten had they recognized Israel in say 1950. Just as I ask my revisionist friends to KEEP your dream, but make a territorial compromise NOW. I think Israel MUST withdraw from 90% of the West Bank or more. Do you think I will not still DREAM of Hevron, of Shechem, the hill country of Ephraim, of the ancient homes of my people? But a politics of dreams ALONE is a politics of disaster. One must wake from dreams and face the cold light of day. The moderate elements of the Israeli left have done so. Every now and then Sharon gives the impression of having done so (but not so consistently that i dont still prefer a Labour PM) A few Pal intellectuals have done so, and Abu Mazen gave strong signs of having done so. But Hamas has not done so, much of Fatah has not done so, Arafat has not done so, and many Pals who follow Arafat and Hamas have not done so.

	23-03-2004 05:05									#218
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Oh wow, do you think that will really work? Israel is not blameless. It chooses to shoot guns at children with rocks, drop bombs on sleeping families, and fire missiles into crowds. They are every bit as much of terrorists as Hamas. The only differnce is that Israel isn't targetting non-combatants. They just don't care if they hit them anyway. Maybe if you educated yourself about the Palestinian situation you might not be such an ignorant smart-ass. You might realize that both sides are the bad guys and that the innocent on either side are trapped in the middle.

I never said that Isreal is blameless.

	23-03-2004 08:23									#219
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: I don't care about Yassin or his bodyguards. It's just that Israel has a nasty and frequent habit of killing innocent bystanders along with their targets. Nothing boils the blood like dead kids.

Oh, I guess the blood runs warm when it is Jewish kids laying dead in the streets?

quote: Maybe if you educated yourself about the Palestinian situation you might not be such an ignorant smart-ass. You might realize that both sides are the bad guys and that the innocent on either side are trapped in the middle.

Really should take heed your own words.

quote: Add on top of this that the immigrant are not coming to join their society, but to create a new one, their OWN, on what you consider your land-so not only did they have no political control over immigration into the mandate (someone in London did), but the immigrants are not coming to become part of their society, but to create a brand new separate one which happens to be in the same parcel of land. I doubt most highly that ANY people would be willing to let such a situation develop.

YOU call it immigration.I call it comming home.

	23-03-2004 08:25									#220
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood YOU call it immigration.I call it comming home. It was Jewish land before the Arabs moved in. You need to git your facts straight.

Why don't we give America back to the Cherokees?

	23-03-2004 08:36									#221
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Why give it back when they have all been exterminated

	23-03-2004 08:38									#222
	Inflate your Upload Space

We didn't get all those Cherokee bastards, unfortunately. They're still out there, biding their time whilst producing quality SUVs...

	23-03-2004 08:41									#224
	Put an end to popups!

Damn I wanted to visit the Holy Places this Passover

	23-03-2004 08:41									#225
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

A shame there aren't more Jews to produce the brand-new Auschwitz off-road.

	23-03-2004 08:47									#226
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: A shame there aren't more Jews to produce the brand-new Auschwitz off-road.

Don't go there

	23-03-2004 08:50									#227
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood Don't go there

Why? I thought the camp was closed in 1945. Has George W. Bushb reopened it yet?

	23-03-2004 09:46									#228
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I wonder whether clearing out of Gaza without making it look like Hamas chased them from the land could have been done in a better fashion. This seems like a rather crude way of managing Palestinian perceptions, even if it is effective.

	23-03-2004 12:21									#229
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Damn I wanted to visit the Holy Places this Passover

so, what's the problem?

	23-03-2004 12:25									#230
	Tired of ads?

quote: Then, I can understand and probably continue the assasinations if my overall goals were being met. Just remember that this could blow up in Israel's face. If I were a leader of the Palestinians I would use Israel's assasinations to rally my people. Especially the ones who are on the fence to increase the amount of attacks. I would escalate the conflict until the other side was willing to halt their aggression and talk.

people on the fence? use the assassinations? What is exactly your source on the beliefs of the people on the streets?
They're already doing their best to "escalate" the conflict, that's the fricking point. Any claim like "we're going to bring pain to Israel" like they proclaim after each time they get pwned, is met by lots of rolleyes on our side.

	23-03-2004 12:26									#231
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood Why give it back when they have all been exterminated

News of our extermination has been greatly exagerated.

	23-03-2004 12:33									#232
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by DanS I wonder whether clearing out of Gaza without making it look like Hamas chased them from the land could have been done in a better fashion. This seems like a rather crude way of managing Palestinian perceptions, even if it is effective.

The problem isn't the perception that Hamas is chasing them out; the problem is the reality that Hamas is now busy driving what's left of the PA out.

Hamas has been trying to make Gaza its own, independent of Arafat's PA.

	23-03-2004 12:49									#233
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Hamas is still GREATLY outnumbered. That's why they don't stage a takeover: their numbers are 1:10 against the palestinians ( 1:20 against the Israelis. )

	23-03-2004 12:57									#234
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar China and Pakistan are very close.

Realpolitik is a wonderful thing, is it not?

	23-03-2004 14:05									#235
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

As long as India is still there, Pakistan will continue to be a Chinese ally.

	23-03-2004 15:42									#236
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Damn I wanted to visit the Holy Places this Passover Originally posted by Azazel so, what's the problem?

What Azazel means to say is: it won't get any worse than it is now. Hamas getting its leader killed won't let it magically conjure up more suicide bombings or bombers. So if you were planning on going to Israel, the same risk exists now as before.

	23-03-2004 16:00									#237
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

You think? I'd say the next few weeks will see an expansion of the suicide bombers campaigns. It's what always seems to happen after a terrorist faction leader is taken out.

	23-03-2004 16:47									#238
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Check Siro's "attacks blocked" thread.

	23-03-2004 19:28									#239
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Look, youre saying the Jews waited for 1800 years to get a state, and they finally got one so why should the Pals settle for a compromise. Fine. So let them cut a deal for Gaza and 94% of the West Bank now, and KEEP THEIR DREAMS of taking the whole area. Dictating peoples dreams is NOT within the realm of liberal politics. What im interested in is not their dreams, which are their own, but their actions. The ACTIONS I expect are a territorial compromise, one that gives them a viable state but recognizes theyre NOT going to get all they might have gotten had they recognized Israel in say 1950. Just as I ask my revisionist friends to KEEP your dream, but make a territorial compromise NOW. I think Israel MUST withdraw from 90% of the West Bank or more. Do you think I will not still DREAM of Hevron, of Shechem, the hill country of Ephraim, of the ancient homes of my people? But a politics of dreams ALONE is a politics of disaster. One must wake from dreams and face the cold light of day. The moderate elements of the Israeli left have done so. Every now and then Sharon gives the impression of having done so (but not so consistently that i dont still prefer a Labour PM) A few Pal intellectuals have done so, and Abu Mazen gave strong signs of having done so. But Hamas has not done so, much of Fatah has not done so, Arafat has not done so, and many Pals who follow Arafat and Hamas have not done so.

Well, there is a slight difference-you see, Jews can imagine a wonderful old kingdom they once had- and dream about the past, as you seem to do-whether this has any bearing with reality, different matter.

But the palestinians have nothing to dream about-their state was stillborn. They were fundamentally correct to feel what was going on in the mandate in the 1920's, 30's and 40's was completely against the values their rulers had voiced-they were denied self-determination, and when it came time for them to have any real political say, this was crushed by both the neighboring arab states and the Israelis. So what can a Palestinian dream about? The wonderful time in the 1930's?

Palestinian identity was being born in the early part of the century, as was all arab nationalism-so the entire palestinian national experience, as that and not just a pan-arab experience, has been rather shitty. Denied thier own state, betrayed in various ways by the self-serving arab leaders who claim to be helping them-why should they then aspire to anything but all? After all, what will it change? They have been victims for all their history-whats a few more centuries of same old, same old?

I really hope Sharon pulls out of Gaza soon and keeps his hands off- the Palestinians need some time of actually havingh real self-rule somewhere to work out their many, many issues.

	23-03-2004 19:31									#240
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Azazel Hamas is still GREATLY outnumbered. That's why they don't stage a takeover: their numbers are 1:10 against the palestinians ( 1:20 against the Israelis. )

And at least according to some NY papers, 300,000 people come out to mourn Yassin-which is about 1/3 of the population of Gaza. So while the PA may have more guns, they sure as hell don't have more support.