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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:34
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quote:
The Pledge "doesn't sound anything like a prayer," said Chief Justice William Rehnquist. "You can disagree with the phrase 'under God' but that doesn't make it a prayer." |
It's an affirmation of a religious belief.
quote:
Justice Sandra Day O'Connor said there "so many references to God" in public affairs, noting "In God We Trust" was on U-S currency and coins. She added the Supreme Court opens all its public sessions with the words, "God save the United States and this honorable Court." |
"In God We Trust" on coins is not an affirmation of a religious belief, i.e., coins don't ask me to stand up in front of others and pledge allegiance to a nation under someone's god.
quote:
Besides, noted Justice David Souter, even if the words "under God" represented religion "in actual practice, it's an affirmation in the mindset of a civic exercise." |
Well now, a "civic exercise" that asks us to affirm someone else's religious belief is why this case was brought. If children were being asked to stand and affirm one nation, under Satan (or fill in the blank) there would be a huge outcry. But it doesn't matter since it's the majority's religious belief.
quote:
"God is so generic in this context as to be a neutral" expression of belief, continued Justice Stephen Breyer. |
It isn't "generic" for atheists, it's an affirmation of someone else's religious belief. Turn it around, what if children were being asked to pledge allegiance to one nation, under no god because god does not exist? That too would violate their religious freedom and the establishment clause.
quote:
"The child doesn't have to say the words," said Justice O'Connor. "You have the right not to participate."
Child would be singled out, father says
Newdow, who is not a practicing attorney, made an impressive, impassioned argument, declaring his daughter would be singled out by not saying the Pledge, and would be coerced to participate. "Imagine you're a third-grader in a class of 30 kids. That's enormous pressure to put on a child" to conform, Newdow said. "Government needs to stay out of the religion business altogether." |
O'Connor needed this pointed out to her? It's painfully obvious! The pledge is coercive... It's akin to Judge Roy Moore asking people before his court if they are Christians before deciding their fate...
Clearly the court will rule against Newdow, not because he's wrong and they're right, but because these people are going to do what is politically expedient and ignore constitutional principles.
Imran - quote:
He doesn't have it. A teen may, but not a father who isn't in school. |
Parents aren't legal guardians? If there is a problem, it's that the kid's mother is the legal guardian, but frankly, that shouldn't prevent the court from ruling since he merely represents people who don't want the state indoctrinating their children into someone else's religion viewpoint.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:34
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quote:
It's an affirmation of a religious belief.
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Well, then. Which specific religion endorses this belief?
quote:
"In God We Trust" on coins is not an affirmation of a religious belief, i.e., coins don't ask me to stand up in front of others and pledge allegiance to a nation under someone's god.
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Curious. One would think that earning your livelihood In God We Trust, would be a far greater affirmation of religious belief.
quote:
Well now, a "civic exercise" that asks us to affirm someone else's religious belief is why this case was brought. If children were being asked to stand and affirm one nation, under Satan (or fill in the blank) there would be a huge outcry. But it doesn't matter since it's the majority's religious belief.
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That would be a specific endorsement of Satan, over other gods.
quote:
It isn't "generic" for atheists, it's an affirmation of someone else's religious belief. Turn it around, what if children were being asked to pledge allegiance to one nation, under no god because god does not exist? That too would violate their religious freedom and the establishment clause.
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Hey, if a Mennonite wants to become a citizen from the US, he has to swear an oath of allegience to the state. Same with Jews, conflicting their oath with Israel.
By this logic, any oath could be struck down as violating freedom of religion and the establishment clause.
Instead, we have the rather more careful standard that prevents the oath from endorsing any one particular religion over another.
quote:
Newdow, who is not a practicing attorney, made an impressive, impassioned argument, declaring his daughter would be singled out by not saying the Pledge, and would be coerced to participate. "Imagine you're a third-grader in a class of 30 kids. That's enormous pressure to put on a child" to conform, Newdow said. "Government needs to stay out of the religion business altogether."
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Again, which religion are the selling. The establishment clause does not mean religion ought to be expunged from the public realm, but rather, that you do not have an establish church of America, as the Church of England would be in Britain.
quote:
It's akin to Judge Roy Moore asking people before his court if they are Christians before deciding their fate...
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Is the child asked if she is an atheist? No. False analogy.
I pity the child caught up in the battle between her father and the government. She is being used as a pawn.
quote:
Clearly the court will rule against Newdow, not because he's wrong and they're right, but because these people are going to do what is politically expedient and ignore constitutional principles.
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Right. The constitution is rather clear on this matter.
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Well, then. Which specific religion endorses this belief? |
 the point is that it supports MANY religions!
quote:
That would be a specific endorsement of Satan, over other gods. |
This is a specific endorsement of other gods over Satan.
quote:
Hey, if a Mennonite wants to become a citizen from the US, he has to swear an oath of allegience to the state. Same with Jews, conflicting their oath with Israel.
By this logic, any oath could be struck down as violating freedom of religion and the establishment clause.
Instead, we have the rather more careful standard that prevents the oath from endorsing any one particular religion over another. |
No an oath couldn't, because an oath that completely ignored religion would - get this - have nothing to do with religion!
quote:
Again, which religion are the selling. The establishment clause does not mean religion ought to be expunged from the public realm, but rather, that you do not have an establish church of America, as the Church of England would be in Britain. |
And endorsement of the existance of a god is an establishment of religion!
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Sava
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GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Just Jefferson. Most were Christians. |
wrong...
Thomas Paine --
quote:
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." |
from searches on the net: http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/founders.htm
quote:
George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.
From:
George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX) |
John Adams:
quote:
It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
From:
The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814. |
from Thomas Jefferson's writings:
quote:
The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained. |
and
quote:
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -- Thomas Jefferson |
James Madison
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"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
From:
The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 |
or how about Benjamin Franklin
quote:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." |
in addition to this Kenobi
quote:
The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." |
YOU HAVE BEEN OWNED BIYATCH!
As with gay marriage, abortion, and every other issue, YOU ARE WRONG KENOBI!
Have a nice day! And if you feel like getting proven wrong again, let me know. I have a lot of free time. 
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25-03-2004 06:40
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