26-03-2004 01:33									#1
	Request help with early turn decisions Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I have not been a big fan of Morgan in the past since a +3 Econ (with FM) doesn't seem to provide a big benefit and the lowered hab limit is a killer. But recently I was playing him and tried Demo/Green/Wealth and loved it. The magic +2 Econ, +1 Ind, plus mind worm capture is sweet. You can generally able to out-produce, while using worms to harass enemies and allies alike. Just the kind of dirty pool I like to play

Problem is the damn AI keeps winning the WP(which I used to ignore, but now can't live without) while I'm still building up crawlers. Even on SP transcend level this shouldn't be that hard to get right? I must be doing something stupid that I'm not catching. I think I might be spreading myself too thin. So my request is....could the Morgan fans out there list out how you typically run your turns up to the point at which you begin building the WP? Maybe I can see what I am doing wrong.

	26-03-2004 01:45									#2
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I suspect you are not using the crawler upgrade trick to make crawlers worth additional minerals when cashing them for Sps like the WP. Even without upgrading, cashing crawlers should mean you get the WP ahead of the AI-- I know that its painful to eliminate your own crawlers, but some projects are just worth it

	26-03-2004 02:37									#3
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Umm... if I had a link, there's a blow-by-blow Morgan start strat for Transcend by Oggie, that I always use. Basically you start by researching Biogenetics, while your two starting bases build the Merchant Exchange, then you swich production to RecTanks in both bases as soon as you get the tech and rush the tanks. Then build colony pods. This little extra gets your first bases about 50% more productive for little effort, and puts you into a good position the whole game.

I also reccommend Kody's work on Rushing Production. Its a masterpiece and more relevant for Morgan than others.

-Jam

	26-03-2004 03:18									#4
	Increase Your PM Length

The write up Jam so graciously refers to is here. .

	26-03-2004 04:46									#5
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I generally get WP by setting a base down in a good location, waiting for a rec commons, then building WP. No way am I going to wait for supply crawlers -- I'd get sniped for sure.

I try to keep the support burden light in the base set aside to build it. I'll also burn artifacts, damaged battle ogres, and surplus Unity Rovers for it -- it's that important. (I won't burn "Independent" Unity Rovers, though -- support-free police are too valuable.)

Early game growth is exponential, and I pay a huge opportunity cost of that potential to keep my best base at zero support (0-1 units) just to build WP. As an added bonus, though, that base is set up to compete for other critical SP's.

The arrival of the supply crawler ends the era of the single "SP base" -- and of the painful decision to burn artifacts. By that time I usually have WP and VW, and if I'm lucky either CN or HGP.

	26-03-2004 05:05									#6
	Re: Request help with early turn decisions Put an end to popups!

For Morgan, early AAs are DEFINITELY best used to build WP or HGP, don't hoard them for tech. Also, instead of upgrading crawlers early on, just rush build them. It seems less cash efficent, but it _is_ more time efficient, and that's what counts. Use the crawlers to trawl forest tiles while you're waiting for enough to finish your SPs in a single turn, you'll be suprised how much quicker your early SPs get cranked out.

If I have 2 AA's collected, I'll consider building WP even before I get IA, but for just one, the early growth is far more important.

Last edited by CEO Aaron on 26-03-2004 at 05:11

	26-03-2004 05:20									#7
	Re: Re: Request help with early turn decisions Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by CEO Aaron Also, instead of upgrading crawlers early on, just rush build them. It seems less cash efficent, but it _is_ more time efficient, and that's what counts. Use the crawlers to trawl forest tiles while you're waiting for enough to finish your SPs in a single turn, you'll be suprised how much quicker your early SPs get cranked out.

I see you've been converted.

	26-03-2004 05:41									#8
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Yep. Our thread about that last time didn't really leave any doubt.

	26-03-2004 06:33									#9
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Its something that goes right back to Vel's guide. Time is your most precious resource. Its worth spending x now, to make 2x 10 turns down the line, but its even better to spend 2x now to make 3x 5 turns down the line.

Playing as Morgan I'm spending the bank practically empty every turn with little rushes. Rushing mostly rectanks, formers and crawlers, because that gets my mineral and food production up. Why do I boost mins and nuts? To build more bases more quickly. All those size 6 bases filled with specialists making great stacks of ec (Assume AV is built) is a wonder to behold.

-Jam

	26-03-2004 07:08									#10
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Yeah, I'm pretty much the same, although some of colony pods also get a good portion of rush cash, both to accelerate base placement, and to keep my population under control.

Not only does rushing formers over upgrading them give you turn advantage, but you get the interim resources they collect while waiting to be cashed in, so that counts against the extra ECs you spend over upgrading. Once the midgame hits home, and you have the ability to create monstrously expensive crawlers, upgrading makes sense again, especially if you have an indifferent or worse industry rating.

	26-03-2004 13:18									#11
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You mean rushing crawlers, not formers, right? Although you need to rush some formers too, so the crawlers can collect the "interim resources" more effiecently. Forests and roads seems to be the quickest. The road adds a bit of terraforming time, but means the tile can be crawled 1-3 turns earlier in most cases, adding 2-6 minerals which soon adds up.

I'm sure that with the right rushing, all your core bases can get 25-30 minerals within 10 years of getting IA, by crawling the minerals back to build more crawlers, and always rushing as soon as you have the first row full. (With enough cash, rush to fill the first row on the next crawler too) When I have 5-6 bases that can all build crawlers in one turn, I can crash build all the early SPs one after another bang-bang-bang-bang. Then I switch to colony pods at all bases, having terraformed new base sites with enough food and with the PTS and HGP, I now massively ICS. The new bases pump more CPs and crawlers while the core bases switch to facs, while changing the crawlers to food to support pure specialists.

If THAT doesn't help a cash rich faction get into a good position vs the AI, nothing will.

-Jam

	27-03-2004 04:06									#12
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Thanks for the replies.

Burn a AA on a project....noooooooo.... well ok, I was reluctant, but I tried it last night and won the WP. Unfortunately the AI switched over to the HGP a snagged it a few turns later, but I guess that really can't be stopped. Generally speaking, once I get into the mid game I have the AI pretty much under my boot, but my early game still stinks.

Btw I did read the Morgan tips over at CGN (thx for the link). Thing is, I'm using Morgan specifically to avoid using FM (if you can believe that) I'm tried of having bases and pod poppers getting worm raped because of the -30% planet rating psi modifier, plus the drone problems from the police rating are no fun either. Thus the push for a green/wealth SE. Plus it will ally me with the two tree-hugger factions. Morgan under FM/wealth you will have few friends (unless you put Morgan in a second time of course). I'm starting to think that ICS maybe part of the problem for me. I hadn't even heard of it til about a month ago and I have a hard time putting bases that close together. Wouldn't the B-drone problems become crippling as time goes on with this style?

quote: all your core bases can get 25-30 minerals within 10 years of getting IA

25-30 mins? Pre-tree farms? How do you deal with the fungi pops/worms/damage to terraforming? Not to mention the eventual sea rise. It seems counter productive to spend 18 turns making a borehole only to have it destroyed a few turns later cause of eco-damage. Am I missing something here? I suppose if I had 6 bases pumping out 30 mins per turn I wouldn't have any problem at all.

	27-03-2004 06:08									#13
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You don't run FM for very long with Morgan, just long enough to get to your nut/mineral/energy restrictions lifted, and a quick population boom afterward. Once you're finished with the pop boom, and all your bases are at 11, switch to Green/Fundy/Wealth, and you're ready to head out on the offensive.

As for 25-30 minerals per base, yeah, that's probably too much to run in every base, but you actually want to have a couple of fungal pops before you start building Tree Farms.

ICS isn't too hard, it's just predicated cornering a couple of early SPs. With just HGP and PTS, you can plant infinite size 3 bases. Make sure there's a 2 nutrient square it can harvest in addition to a couple of forests, and build yourself a Rec Commons with your starting 10 minerals. Plant your bases 3 squares apart, and you'll have plenty of room for a horde of them on even a modest sized continent.

	27-03-2004 06:12									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

30 minerals is ok. It gives minimal ecodamage - and remember, you want one *pop* before building any treefarms, or they don't have any effect. 27 is just nice because its 3 rows if you're running Wealth = a crawler every turn. The real ecodamage is pretty hard to get untill after the restrictions are lifted, but then its pretty easy to re-home enough formers to a base to force the first *pop*

-Jam

	27-03-2004 06:17									#15
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Here's some real man's ecodamage

http://www.apolyton.com/forums/show...threadid=105573

-Jam

	27-03-2004 08:00									#16
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quote: but then its pretty easy to re-home enough formers to a base to force the first *pop*

Crawlers you mean?

	27-03-2004 14:29									#17
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quote: 30 minerals is ok

Well, sure, if you can swing it. My bases tend to be so tightly packed before I raise mineral restrictions, I don't really have enough room for that many crawlers. Typically, I'll cap out at 3 crawlers per base, except for the one I plan on forcing the pop in. Any more and I start running out of places to put them.

	27-03-2004 18:50									#18
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quote: Crawlers you mean?

Crap, now I'm doing it too

quote: Well, sure, if you can swing it. My bases tend to be so tightly packed before I raise mineral restrictions, I don't really have enough room for that many crawlers. Typically, I'll cap out at 3 crawlers per base, except for the one I plan on forcing the pop in. Any more and I start running out of places to put them.

I assume you're using this spacing :

code:

B-B-B-B-B
---------
B-B-B-B-B
---------
B-B-B-B-B

	28-03-2004 04:18									#19
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Jam, your 'relaxed' base placement, is that what's known as three on diagonical placement?

	28-03-2004 19:04									#20
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I think its "2-on-diagonal" placement. I'm never sure if the end square is counted or not. I'm not strict about it though, and if there's fungus or rocks in the way, the tile is left empty.

-Jam

	29-03-2004 00:10									#21
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When you play Morgan, you really don't get enough early former power to enforce any kind of placement pattern, just plant them where there's open space. I actually just plant my bases 3 squares from any other bases. So the crawlers placement issue isn't one of _having_ spaces, just having sufficient formers to have useful places to put them all.

This may be the drawback in MY Morgan game, but I don't go for multiple formers per base until clean reactors become available. Instead, my early production and terraforming is geared solely toward base placement and SP production.

	30-03-2004 03:42									#22
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549 ED?
You guys must be playing a different game than me. IIRC in previous games I get a fungi pop every few rounds at 25 ED, too hard for my formers to keep up with in the early game. At 200 ED I get like 4 pops every round with an increasing number of alien life forms every round too. I don't know how you all do it. I wish I could stand over your shoulders and watch one of you play a game.

quote: So the crawlers placement issue isn't one of _having_ spaces, just having sufficient formers to have useful places to put them all.

Which has been one of my problems. How many formers do you typically build per city? What are your terraforming priorities? If you have the WP, do you slap down a condenser first or forest? etc.

	30-03-2004 04:04									#23
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The formers pay for themselves. If they're costing 1 mineral per turn in support, but mean you gain 2 minerals per turn from a forest... and remember kids, its not how often in SMAC, but how soon you can do it.

Yup, turn advantage is well worth the extra former (rushed of course to save more turn advantage) so you KNOW that when a bas is planted it has good tiles to work, a road link to get the CP there quicker, you know that before it grows, it will have enough food, you have the tiles terraformed before the crawlers are crawling them...

2 formers per base is good, because they can get you the mines and forests faster. I'm just realising recently how vital minerals are in the early game. Its all about production. Forget nuts. Grow to size 2-3 and make crawlers. Crawl minerals to make more crawlers, then produce anything you want almost instantly.

The extra support - even with Morgan - is no big deal. Its better to pay that ONE little mineral to get your terraforming done in time. I want my boreholes in place just BEFORE restriction lifting, not after.

-Jam

	08-04-2004 03:57									#24
	Put an end to popups!

Liberating this thread to its original subject (opposite of hijacking) I played the prooffered game. I have a story to tell you:

It's an arid little starting position, but lucky breaks with the pods brought 3 nutrient resources. By the time I made contact with Santiago in the east my bases had cranked out WP (allowing condensers on the nutrient specials) and HGP, and I shot into first place on most of the graphs.

When she declared war on me I was ready, with several healthy bases all cranking out units, mostly Gat and Missile Rovers, under CC's and BC's under FM / Survival and after hostile pops and a new volcano Fundy / Weath. After taking most of her land she capitulated, swearing a Pact to serve me, and I settled at last into Morgan's famed Demo/Green/Wealth.

I met Domai early and we formed a Pact to smite the evil Caretakers. Later I would use the landlocked but helpfully bellicose Caretakers to finesse a Pact with the reluctant Data Angels, as well.

Domai and Mount Planet are a lethal SP-sniping combination. Other than that major annoyance -- he built AV in 8 turns, the speedy bloke -- I'm on the exponentially accelerating "Stairway to Transcendence"!

But wait ... I have another story to tell:

At first cheered by the placement of my first base on a river, my optimism would soon be ground underfoot by some terribly unlucky pod-popping. A fungal bloom rendered the north coast of my peninsula totally uninhabitable, and the lack of rainfall in general limited my scrawny bases to trailer-parks.

Barely able to expand, SP's were out of the question, and I watched wistfully as the WP, HGP, CC, and all the other favorites went past my nose.

When Santiago found me her well-armed pack descended on my impoverished nation like wolves on raw meat, and I was powerless to stop her. If only I could have expanded as far as the Monolith East of Pholus ridge ...

It pretty much goes to show that how well you do depends a great deal on luck -- not in the first 100 turns but indeed in the first 10.

	08-04-2004 04:09									#25
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The terrain and specials in the radius of the first base have more effect than anything else that happens in the game.

-Jam

	08-04-2004 22:17									#26
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Agreed. Since this game is all about turn advantage, starting position (including resource specials) is all important. But since 90% of the time we land in spots without such a significant advantage, I am trying to figure out how to stay ahead when dropped on the dry side of the mountain in a patch of fungus. I beginning to be of the opinion that there is no such thing as 'too many formers'. Makes me wonder if the Fundies aren't a better peace time faction than I give them credit for. You could run fleets of formers with their high support.