27-03-2004 06:24									#1
	CDG Spotted Support Apolyton

On turn 16 Anthea the Blonde sighted the border of CDG to the south-east.



Please discuss the effects of this discovery and it's effects on our planning, most importantly our settlement plans.

quote: Creative Design Group (CDG) Team Captain: Micaelis Rex Team/Save E-Mail: idg@cdgroup.org Civ: Scandanavia (Mil & Sea, Alphabet & Warrior Code, Berserk)

--Togas

	27-03-2004 06:30									#2
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Some notes:

CDG is the only other civ that can realisticly beat us to Philosophy as we two are the only ones who start out with Alphabet.

CDG's UU, the Berserker, won't likely come into effect in this game, and we need not worry as much about it as we both share a continent.

We have had good diplomatic relations with CDG and should be able to parlay that into good relations in this game. They are one of the teams that we considered as a potential ally in this game.

Their development has been remarkable slow and their civ stats are not as good as ours which means we have better tiles in our first city.

--Togas

	27-03-2004 06:55									#3
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Unfortunately, they are also a good mark for elimination.

As it stands, we could have a force of 2 warriors on their door step in a couple turns.

We can significantly impair their development at this point. Once they see one of our warriors, they may pull back their worker. When the second one shows up one turn later, they WILL pull back their worker. If they don't, we should pounce.

Only two teams need to be eliminated for this game to end and move on to the next round. We have an oppertunity to eliminate one early (Yes, I know that the chances of us actually eliminating them with two warriors is to slim to seriously consider, but if we just plant warriors in good defensive positions, it will force them to defend even their workers, much less their settlers. We could put them so far behind that they would be at our mercy.).

	27-03-2004 07:10									#4
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In 4 turns (on turn 20) we could have a 2 warrior stack one tile from their capital.

Do you think they are ready for a two warrior stack on turn 20? Do you think we would be?

Very powerful strategicly and psycologically.

Edited to show improved movement of "Blondie".

Last edited by Donegeal on 27-03-2004 at 19:18

	27-03-2004 07:18									#5
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Exploring is a fundamental part of this game. CDG is sure to have sent out explorers. We need to be able to keep track of these guys and even limit/destroy them.

We also must be prepared for them to show up on our door step, like I propose to do to them.
Should we switch our current build to another warrior (or Hoplite if above 10 shields produced already)?
Should we recall our explorer from the west?

	27-03-2004 09:23									#6
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The Foreign Affairs Ministry stands willing and able.

Ghengis - wake up. We have work to do.

(*Ghengis rolls over and goes back to 'sleep')

Vander? You awake?

	27-03-2004 09:32									#7
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It is likely that if they build a settler it will move west to build along the river near the cattle. We might be able to intercept it if we have our warriors in the right position. What size is their city? Have they built a settler yet?

Edit: Actually it looks like that city was just built since it hasn't expanded culturally. Or maybe it has. Just blathering.

So if it is the capital they most likely would settle on the hill east of our warrior to get the defensive bonus, cattle and next to a river. Our warriors could be lie in waiting to get some slaves.

Last edited by SirOsis on 27-03-2004 at 09:42

	27-03-2004 09:33									#8
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if we are actually harboring the idea of assaulting them, dongeal's plan is best. it will keep us out of view

	27-03-2004 09:34									#9
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To be completely honest, I like the way Donegeal thinks. If it looks like they're not as developed as we think, than we can certainly pressure them to do our will (that, or utterly destroy them).

	27-03-2004 09:47									#10
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i would like people more knowledgable than myself to study the past few turns, or possibly all of them thusfar, and hazard some guesses as to what they've been doing.

their city is a size 2, and that happened on turn 15. i can't find any intelligence saying that it was ever 2 before that, but some of the posts have been lax in terms of intelligence.

what were they working and building to remain at size 1 for 15 turns? perhaps they built a worker the same turn they grew to size 2? could they realistically have a spearman (assuming at least 1 scouting warrior)?

please discuss.

	27-03-2004 10:58									#11
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quote: Originally posted by SirOsis So if it is the capital they most likely would settle on the hill east of our warrior to get the defensive bonus, cattle and next to a river. Our warriors could be lie in waiting to get some slaves.

It almost has to be their capitol. Look at the terrain around it. The Vikings are Military/Seafaring. The Seafaring trait means that they start on the coast.

Now if we wanted to "lie in wait" for a possible undefended worker/settler, moving directly to our east (direction 6) with "Blondie" would put him on grass. This would be the best place for this for two reasons:
1) CDG's best location for a second city (that we know of) is actually directly on the hill that our warrior is on. A city built there will still be on the river, still be on a hill, still get to use the cow (the borders will cover it), plus it could grant them two sugar tiles.

2) How will CDG get to the location? The way I see it, the path that their settler will take would be directly 7, 7, of their capital. They could also take a path that would land them in the open grass 3,6 from Blondie. For both of these paths, CDG will not know of our position until they move right next door (which would be too late). A third possible route would take them on the cow and then onto the hills (or onto the plains then to the hills). Again, in either case, Blondie would be hidden from view until it was too late (if we left him where he is, they would be able to spot him if they took the cow path).

Lying in wiat like this could be our best bet, but would require NOT comming into contact with them on purpose (as if we did, they would surely send their units escourted). It also assumes that this site is the location of their next city (which looks more and more likely as I look at the minimap and map) and that they are going to send out unprotected workers/settlers.

The Military trait means they start with WC. They will NOT have a spear when we contact them as they would have only just aquired BW if that is indeed what they researched first.

About their scouts, and what they were doing for the first 15 turns, they might have built Currahs (or however you spell it). In SP, they are just about the best unit for exploring. Perhaps they built Warrior, Currah, Currah. I have no numbers to confirm any of this, only hunches and speculation.

	27-03-2004 11:20									#12
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They were always at population 1. Maybe they have bonus resource that gives them shields and they have built granary (just like us). I don't think they had the time for second settler. This means these are the borders of their capital.
I don't think they have built second worker either.

East of Anthea there is a water tile. I can't say if it is coast or lake but if it is a coast it is very likely they are at the corner of our isle. Or on very thin neck of land.
If they are in the corner their scouts should have been sent west and north. I wonder how is it possible we have not met them until now. Maybe our continent continues to the east? Or they have no scouting troops? Or the water tile is a lake?

	27-03-2004 11:32									#13
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They don't have pottery, so they couldn't have built a grainery.

	27-03-2004 12:03									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Donegeal They don't have pottery, so they couldn't have built a grainery.

how do you know they don't have it now? they could have prebuilt it

	27-03-2004 12:07									#15
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It is hard for me to think that they were always at population 1. They would have had to work a forest tile for ten of the 15 turns to stay at population 1 this whole time. More likely in my opinion is that they began building a warrior and then built a worker just as they grew to size 2 the first time. We would never see that happen in the top 5 cities board. The only thing about that is that it would have only taken them 5 turns to grow again which would mean irrigating a bonus tile such as wheat or grassland cattle to get 4fpt. Again that's entirely in the realm of possibility.

Another possibility is a barracks build. They are militaristic so a 20 shield barracks is not out of the realm of possibility. We may have to watch out for vets, not regulars.

	27-03-2004 12:09									#16
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well i'm all for strong-arming them, but thats not my decision to make. perhaps we should poll?

my orders will be different if we want them as friends.

	27-03-2004 12:46									#17
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I think they will want friendly relations. As the Vikings, they want to get to Invention so they can build Bezerkers and go nuts. Quick tech to get to the next age is what they are going to want.

We, on the other hand, want slow tech. Currently, our UU is the best in the game (even if we haven't built any yet). The quicker we get to the next age, the quicker our UU, and the entire reason for choosing Greece, goes out the door.

Personally, I think they are too close to be considered a possible ally. If you look at our position on the minimap, the exploring we have done to our West, and think about the settings of this game, we may actually be in a VERY bad position. We may be sandwiched between two civs (althought at this point I feel that we are on a somewhat triangular continent, with us being on the lower left corner, CGD on the lower right corner and a third in the upper center).

The more I think about it, the more I tend to believe that they did indeed build a worker on the turn they grew to size 2. In SP, that is one of the best strategies. We must remember that CDG is a team of modders that mod the game for SP, not so much for MP. They may be assumeing that compitition is not going to be very close (like we were doing until this happened).

	27-03-2004 12:56									#18
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After re-looking at my two warrior stack plan, I think it would be smarter to move Blondie directly south onto the plains across the river instead of SW onto the hill. Here is why:

1) If we move onto the hill, and CDG moves a unit on the cow, they would be able to see him and our gambit would be compromised with nothing we could do.

2) If we move him onto the plains, CDG could still move a unit onto the cow and see us, but we would be in stricking distance of whatever they move there.

Turn 2 would still be to the tile indicated.

	27-03-2004 13:11									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Donegeal After re-looking at my two warrior stack plan, I think it would be smarter to move Blondie directly south onto the plains across the river instead of SW onto the hill. Here is why: 1) If we move onto the hill, and CDG moves a unit on the cow, they would be able to see him and our gambit would be compromised with nothing we could do. 2) If we move him onto the plains, CDG could still move a unit onto the cow and see us, but we would be in stricking distance of whatever they move there. Turn 2 would still be to the tile indicated.

I was going to say that unitl I got to the last post and here you say it already!

Yes, apply pressure. If we can confirm they don't have BW when we make contact we should go after them with the two warriors. At the very least it will force them to possibly pop-rush a unit which will put them way behind us. If they successfully fend off our attack we can then plan for a proper Archer rush.

	27-03-2004 13:23									#20
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This game is moving pretty fast. We need to decide what we are going to do soon. I'd start a poll, but I can't while at work.

This is what it needs:
1) Lets knock'em down!
2) Lets be friends.
3) Banana.

Poll should be set for only a single day, as any longer would delay our playing of the turn.

Please note that even if we vote to go aggressive with them, we would not be bound to war with them. This polls main purpose is to help Uber decide what to do (as he said his orders would be different pending what aditude the team wanted to take with them).

	27-03-2004 13:33									#21
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I have also considered the idea of pulling back, building up, and then hitting them with a force of archers and warriors, but that probably isn't in our best interest. They are definately going to find us with a scouting warrior, and probably find us before we can launch our attack on them.

I'm unsure on if we should attack them now. I think we have a distinct advantage over them in the short and long run. We have far better planning than they do, and a much more useful UU. We also have the potential to ally with them to guarantee us both a spot in the 2nd game, where we would easily beat them ... after bringing them along as our ally from this game.

--Togas

	27-03-2004 13:45									#22
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Poll being started now.

	27-03-2004 19:20									#23
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I was going to say that unitl I got to the last post and here you say it already! Yes, apply pressure. If we can confirm they don't have BW when we make contact we should go after them with the two warriors. At the very least it will force them to possibly pop-rush a unit which will put them way behind us. If they successfully fend off our attack we can then plan for a proper Archer rush.

I have updated the Two Warrior Stack picture to reflect the improved movement of "Blondie".

	27-03-2004 22:50									#24
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i agree with don's updated plan. originally, i was thinking of moving blondie SE, but i do realize the value of suprise, should we actually have to use force.

i have plotted dongeal's course on a new image, with sight ranges. i am assumign everything we are moving onto other than the hill we see is flat land. if any of it is hills / mountains, or if any of the terrain adjacent to the shown boxes are, the view will change.

	27-03-2004 23:06									#25
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that gif took too long to make, so i won't make another one.

my other idea is to NOT stack them. we can scout more land, and see if any settlerstacks start to walk through. also it seems a lot more "normal" to have scouting units NOT stacked.

suggested orders for the start this plan.
blondie: SE, S
grog: E, SE

this would give us a bigger "sprawl" of sight.

	27-03-2004 23:27									#26
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Wow, too bad that gif was too difficult. Its amazing (and one we should show CDG if we do take them out)!

Your non-stacked plan I think has one flaw. If Blondie moves SE, it puts him on a hill that can be seen by CGD. They will not even need a unit in the area to see him. Contact will have been made. Now if it were to move E, he would remain hidden and he could stay hidden until either a settler or worker comes along. Once they do, they could do nothing to stop us from pouncing (this is the "lie in wait" plan). The main problem with this is that although unlikely, they could play their turn, see their mistake, and replay by moving a different direction.

Perhaps we should contact Elucidius (or what ever his name is) to monitor thier private forum for order changes after they get the save and to observe the save itself for the next couple of turns. Actually, we may want to contact then anyway so they know in advance that something big is going to go down. I would also vote to allow the head of the UN access to our private forum (I am correct in that he is not part of the team, right?).

[edit] BTW, I really think we should move our Western explorer back to our city in the off chance that something goes wrong.

	27-03-2004 23:30									#27
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my only fear is that by stacking our warriors we LOOK to be preparing an attack. if there are two seperate scouting warriors, it looks more believable.

	27-03-2004 23:31									#28
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Two warriors on their border at turn 24 is going to look like an offensive no matter if they are stacked or not.

	28-03-2004 07:45									#29
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Wow, I *love* the way you guys are thinking.

We'll have to put together a sim and test the results of 2 regular warriors versus a regular fortified warrior (and hope for no hills, etc)

Granted, once they see our 2-warrior stack on their border, they could probably realistically pop-rush another unit depending on what is in their current build queue. So this makes me somewhat hesistant to try it since we might just be throwing 2 warriors away.

Perhaps we should scout out the area more, that way we have some decent intelligence when they found new cities, in the meantime, we should plan to make war (providing we don't run into anyone else).

Edit: Corrected random typos.

Last edited by WhiteBandit on 28-03-2004 at 08:50

	28-03-2004 08:07									#30
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Even if they poprush, that's a pop point wasted - sort of like capturing their worker. That can really hurt in the early game. And if we keep them in the area, we stand a chance of terrorizing any pop units they try to send out.

We could still do some damage even if we attacking the capital itself has bad odds.