01-04-2004 01:39									#31
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

You may be right, but I was trying to break some cascades, and the HG was not yet available. I think the only other Wonder available were the Pyramids.

Edit: I'm pretty sure you can get the HG too, actually. I haven't played that far.

	01-04-2004 02:14									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

If you thought you could get it, say only at the cost of losing the Oracle, would you build the Pyramids for denial value?

-Arrian

	01-04-2004 02:18									#33
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I don't think so. The Pyramids are more expensive and I'd rather get a head start for other, more important Wonders. At least the Oracle gives some benefit (lots of culture and a happy face). The Pyramids would be completely useless to me, since I was already at size 12. Let the AI get the Pyramids and grow, they're all much bigger than I am, anyway!

	01-04-2004 05:34									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Arrian If you thought you could get it, say only at the cost of losing the Oracle, would you build the Pyramids for denial value?

The only thing I build for denial value is Hoover because building 10 SS Parts under OCC is hard enough as it is.

- TT

	01-04-2004 05:38									#35
	Building Copernicus' Observatory: Log Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Ancient Times Turn Log: (contd)

0850BC: Mysticism, Mathematics, Philosophy, Code of Laws, Map Making, Horseback Riding, and Polytheism from Great Library.
0825BC: Traded Polytheism around for 21 gold and a bunch of Territory Maps.
0800BC: Library.
0775BC: Size 9.
0730BC: Tribute to Russia. Temple.
0710BC: Japanese build Pyramids.
0630BC: Currency and Construction from Great Library. Monotheism is my freebie. Harbor. Size 10.

Middle Ages Turn Log:

Note: Nobody on the trade network. I was hoping building a Harbor would bring some Luxuries online. Instead, it’s time to bring the Scientific Civs into the Middle Ages first and try to trade Monotheism for their freebies.

0610BC: Traded Currency to Germany for 18 gold. Their freebie is also Monotheism.

Traded Currency to Russia for Territory Map and 12 gold. Their freebie is Feudalism.
Gave Currency and Construction to Arabia.
Traded Construction to Japanese for World Map and 18 gold.
Gave Currency to Japan.
Traded Construction to Zulu for World Map and 10 gold.
Gave Currency to Zulu.
Sold Monotheism to France for 31 gold and World Map.
Sold Monotheism to Carthage for 69 gold and World Map.
Gave Monotheism to everyone else.

Note: Everyone is equal tech-wise except Russia who has Feudalism. All rivals except Germany are Polite or Gracious.

0550BC: The Republic and Feudalism from Great Library. Traded Feudalism around for World Map and 19 gold. Traded The Republic to Carthage for 19 gold. Gave The Republic to everyone else.
0530BC: Size 11.
0490BC: Cathedral.
0450BC: End of Golden Age.
0430BC: Revolution.
0390BC: New Government: Republic.
0350BC: Size 12.
0330BC: Bought Worker from Arabia for 120 gold.
0290BC: Monarchy from Great Library. Colosseum.
0270BC: Traded Monarchy around for World Map and 136 gold. Worker.
0250BC: Size 12 again.
0170BC: Theology from Great Library. Traded Theology around for World Map, 89 gold, and one Worker. Chivalry from Great Library. Gave Chivalry to everyone who didn’t have it.
0150BC: Marketplace. French build Great Wall.
0130BC: Worker.
0110BC: Size 12 again.
0090BC: Arabs build Great Lighthouse.
0050BC: Engineering from Great Library. Traded Engineering around for World Map and 84 gold. Courthouse.
0010BC: Worker.
0010AD: Size 12 again. Using Wonders as pre-builds for Copes or University.
0070AD: Connected trade network over land. Bought Gems, Silks, and Dyes from France for 105 gold. Try doing that when you have a bunch of cities. Bought a Worker from Carthage for 108 gold.
0010AD: Education from Great Library. Traded Education around for World Map, two Workers, Horses, and 174 gold. University.
0130AD: Worker.
0150AD: Bought Spices from France for 62 gold. Germany builds Hanging Gardens. Size 12 again.

Note: France has Invention and will sell it for 1750 gold. I could buy it and trade it around which would get Printing Press and recoup some of the gold (as well as push everyone down the tech path), but I won’t. Instead, I hope to use Astronomy to trade for Invention and/or Gunpowder.

0250AD: Bought Wines and Incense from Russia for 115 gold.

Note: I try to buy as many Luxuries as I can even if I don’t need them right away. I figure they are cheap so I like locking in the trades while I can.

0260AD: Russia builds Sun Tzu’s.

Note: The price of Invention has fallen to 775 gold.

0290AD: Khurasan tries to overthrow again!
0310AD: Tribute to Russia. Russia starts build Copes.
0320AD: Buy Astronomy from Russia for 195 gold. Copernicus Observatory in 6 turns. Trade Astronomy to around for Invention, Printing Press, Iron, World Map, 14 gpt, and 160 gold.

Note: Astronomy was safe to trade away because the AI places a higher value on the Sistine Chapel and Leonardo’s Workshop. Only if both of those are built will Copes fall. Plus, if Music Theory is discovered in the next six turns, there is no way the AI will build Copes first.

Note: Russia will sell Gunpowder for 975 gold. This is a very tricky decision, actually the trickiest I’ve found so far. Russia could go KAI on me; I don’t want to put that much money in Russia’s coffer quite yet.

0360AD: The price of Gunpowder has fallen to 540 gold. Buy Silks from Carthage for 21 gold. Buy Gems and Dyes from France for 124 gold.
0370AD: Bought Gunpowder from France for 477 gold. Sold Gunpowder around for World Map, 3 gpt, and 96 gold. Copernicus Observatory.

	01-04-2004 05:39									#36
	Building Copernicus' Observatory Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Here's my little part of the world the turn before building Copes:

Attachment: greecetrainer0370ad.jpg
This has been downloaded 75 time(s).

	01-04-2004 05:40									#37
	10AD: Turn before Education Support Apolyton

Here's the save from 10 AD:

Attachment: alexander of the greeks, 10 ad.sav
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

	01-04-2004 05:41									#38
	370AD: Turn before Copes Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Here's the save from 370 AD:

Attachment: alexander of the greeks, 370 ad.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	01-04-2004 05:46									#39
	Comments Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Not too much to comment on. The city radius is fully developed and I won't have to change it until I get ready for post-Hospital growth.

I have 1000 gold in the bank and will research Chemistry in 20 turns (less once Copes comes on line). That's a good amount of cash, but nothing astonishing. I don't feel exactly rich, but I don't feel like a pauper either.

As the log indicates, I've done everything I can think of to push my rivals along. Building Copes in 370AD is just about average for me playing OCC. It feels neither exceptionally early nor exceptionally late.

The pace of the game feels good, but I'm afraid of either Russia for France going KAI on me which could mean trouble entering Modern Times.

Any comments or thoughts?

- TT

	01-04-2004 20:18									#40
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I started my own OCC game last night (monarch, standard map, 8 civs, Byzantium). The starting spot actually wasn't particularly impressive. No bonus food tiles at first (there was a fish, but that doesn't help until you're out of despotism). I had a nice meandering river that touched most of my tiles - that was nice. 3 bonus grassland, 3 hills, 1 mountain, and the rest grassland or forest. I think I got 1 or 2 more bgrass underneath the forest tiles. Only 2 of the tiles in the city radius were water tiles (fish and a normal coastal tile). That was nice for production.

My resource/luxury situation is rather poor. I have a source of horses, and 1 single silks tile. That's it. Nothing else. I waited a while to trade for coal so I could build RRs!

I do not have a detailed log, but I can recall most of the important stuff:

I initially built 3 warriors & a curragh, and at some point added a regular spearman (for fear of barb uprising) and a second curragh, who eventually became a Dromon. Then I built the Colossus.

The most native workers I ever had was 2 - and they're long gone (I actually sold them off, since the city was at size12 for so long). I have 9 slaves, though, purchased through the ages.

Then a regular improvement or two (library, temple?), and the Great Lighthouse.

Then I think a Marketplace, followed by the Great Library, which triggered my GA. I was in republic by this point, at size12.

Somewhere in here I added a Colosseum & Harbor. Then, since the AI wonder cascades took out the HG, I built the Sistine , followed by Leos followed by a Cathedral and then the Knights Templar. Then a barracks, University, Copernicus, Bank, Shakespeares (SGL rushed). Then a factory, Universal Suffrage, ToE, hydro plant, Hoover (thought about not building it, but then figured I should), stock exchange, Intelligency Agency...

Somewhere in there I built some vet riflemen, who have become infantry. My old crusaders have been disbanded for shields. I have also built some arty, and will produce a cruiser next turn. It's almost the end of the 1700s, and I'm researching Mass Production (9 turn pace). I still have the tech lead, and have ~15000 in the bank.

I actually got a SGL from writing - the first tech I researched. I ended up holding him until Shakespeare's, however, so his effect on the game hasn't been as large as one might think. As it turned out, I didn't need him to build the key early wonders I wanted (ok, I suppose I *could* have gotten the HG if I'd used him to rush the GL, but then my GA would have been too early: before size12).

It may sound odd, but the Knight's Templar actually came in handy. My continent has spawned a true KIA - Russia. They were the fartest away from me, and kept declaring war on me because I refused to give them stuff (I'd have given up gold, but things like Literature and overseas contacts are more valueable). I signed up my other neighbors as allies repeatedly. The problem was the Russians began to win anyway, and THEN built the Statue of Zeus. At that point, things went south. My crusaders entered the fray to try and save my nearest neighbor, the Ottomans, but could do little to stem the tide. So I had to make peace (no alliance broken, thankfully) and kiss up to dear Catherine from that point on. How irritating.

I made contact with the overseas civs early, thanks to a SUPERcurragh, who survived not 1, not 2, but 3 straight turns in the ocean. One of those civs, the Spanish, made like the Russians and constantly declared war on me for refusing tribute. So I signed up the English, French, and Dutch (I don't think ever at the same time) as allies, and let that war run a VERY long time.

So now I'm in the late industrial age, selling tech to Russia and Spain (who managed to handle the other three, but not destroy them, like Russia did to my Celtic & Ottoman friends) for loads of gpt. Constantinople is size20, pumping upwards of 90spt, pulling in over 400 beakers/turn, IIRC. It has crossed 15k culture, and is gaining 94 per turn.

So, either UN or culture, I think. So long as Catherine doesn't decide to squash me like a bug. I've been gifting her 25 gold every time I see her drop to annoyed (which feels like every 5 turns or so). I may build some more defense, since I'm running over 100gpt surplus at 100% science. More inf/arty, and some Tanks maybe... just so I can hold out for a bit if I get attacked.

Sorry for the ramble. It's my first attempt, and I was up to 1am (on a work night, that's late for me) playing "just one more turn."

-Arrian

Last edited by Arrian on 01-04-2004 at 20:37

	01-04-2004 20:27									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Oh, additionally: tech. I went Writing-CoL-Philo-Republic for free-Literature-Currency-Monotheism for free-Monarchy (oops)-Theology-Printing Press (oops, too early, led to contact demands)-feudalism-chivalry-education-astronomy-banking-demo-free artistry-chemistry-physics-ToG-metalurgy-magnetism-steam power for free-industrialization-medicine-nationalism-electricity-sci method-replaceable parts-sanitation-AT/Electronics for free-corporation-steel-refining...

The rest were either from the Library or via trade. IIRC, I got ~3 techs from the Library.

I was able to keep Literature from the AI for a long time (long after I'd finished the GL). This slowed the research pace. So did the long wars. So much so that I have held the tech lead pretty much wire-to-wire.

It's been a bit easier than I'd expected (now I've done it, I'll load up my save and get Cossack blitzed).

-Arrian

	01-04-2004 20:36									#42
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I also noticed an odd, but minor, bug:

On the F8 screen my "top city" culture and my "total civ" culture are different! Not by much, either (I remember it being ~25 culture points at one time, dunno what it is currently).

-Arrian

	02-04-2004 00:22									#43
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I can see how an OCC game could play out very fast, I had not considered that before.

	02-04-2004 01:21									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yup. Started it around 9pm, played through to 1am, and I think the year is 1796.

It moves.

-Arrian

	02-04-2004 01:28									#45
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Yup. Started it around 9pm, played through to 1am, and I think the year is 1796. It moves.

Yeah, OCC does move. But I spend so much time on the diplomacy screen that my games take a bit longer. I usually finish in 8-9 hours. Somewhere in there.

- TT

	02-04-2004 01:40									#46
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Arrian I also noticed an odd, but minor, bug: On the F8 screen my "top city" culture and my "total civ" culture are different! Not by much, either (I remember it being ~25 culture points at one time, dunno what it is currently). -Arrian

I believe this is a minor bug in how the game handles the period of anarchy. The sum of culture in all Legoland cities now is not equal to what F5 displays. This started back when we switched from despotism to republic.

	02-04-2004 02:03									#47
	Increase Your PM Length

Ah, and given a ~4 turn anarchy period in my OCC game, and considering how much culture/turn the city was producing at the time... yeah, that about lines up.

Thanks, Vondrack

-Arrian

	02-04-2004 02:20									#48
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by ToeTruck Yeah, OCC does move. But I spend so much time on the diplomacy screen that my games take a bit longer. I usually finish in 8-9 hours. Somewhere in there. - TT

I'm sure it's best to check every civ every turn. I did that for certain periods (particularly when I was itching to get more slave workers), but I just cannot keep it up. I've dropped off now to checking about once every 5 turns.

-Arrian

edit/p.s. - also, playing on Monarch gave me more leeway.

	02-04-2004 03:34									#49
	Put an end to popups!

This the part I have been trying to understand for a long time. What do you do when you say check every turn? You mean hit F4 and select each civ and then select make a proposal? What do you say at that time? Do you just select make a proposal and do nothing?

I use to think that constant contacts was a negative, is that just civII?

	02-04-2004 03:42									#50
	Put an end to popups!

Ctrl+shift+D, and talk to each civ I have contact with, to see what they have available for trade, yep. To see if they have a new tech, or a worker (that's big, since the worker will likely only hang out in the capital for 1 turn, so you gotta nab it right then), or just freed up some gpt. Resources are easier - F2. That's how I saw the Russkies had coal for sale.

AFAIK, contacting civs being a negative was only true of CivII. I'm 99% sure of that.

-Arrian

p.s. I was surprised at how cheap resources were... 120 gold for 20 turns of coal. Um, ok! Having only 1 city makes stuff like that pretty easy.

	02-04-2004 04:31									#51
	Tired of ads?

So you get to the screen do you always do "we wish to propose a deal" or say goodbye or what?

I had sort of concluded the contacts were no longer a hit to attittude.

	02-04-2004 06:15									#52
	Support Apolyton

It depends. When in possession of a tech lead in the industrial era, I was calling up 2 particular AIs (the biggest richest ones) every couple of turns and offering them tech, waiting for them to have gpt available.

-Arrian

	02-04-2004 06:21									#53
	Got spare money?

I finished my first OCC game, with a diplomatic victory in 1884 AD. Constantinople was up to 19899 culture, with +99 cpt, so I would have won shortly via culture anyway.

Some notes from the replay:

I was NOT the first civ to generate a SGL! England got one in 2750 bc. No indication they used it. Mine came a bit after (missed the year, oops).

Colossus in 1990bc.

Spanish SGL in 1100bc! Oracle complete in Madrid in 1075 bc. Hmm, that one looks like a SGL rush.

875bc - Lighthouse
130ad - Great Library
480ad - Sistine Chapel
610ad - Knights Templar
900ad - Leonardos
1130ad - Copernicus
1250ad - Shakes (the SGL rush. Heh, held him for ~3000yrs)
1405ad - Newton
1660ad - ToE
1750ad - Hoover

1834ad - SGL for Russia. Dunno if it was used for anything.

1858ad - SETI (computers was my freebie)

1870ad - another SGL for Russia. Also not used, as far as I can tell.

1884ad - UN complete, victory.

So that's 12 turns after the Russians got their 2nd SGL (which it appears came from them going back to research ironclads ffs!). I sold them Fission when I still had 9 turns to go... so ok, they'd probably used the leader on something worthless by then.

I will attach some saves. First, 4000bc:

Attachment: occ.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	02-04-2004 06:23									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I moved the settler one tile, btw, founding Constantinople in 3950bc. I think I moved NE.

Here is the save after I got the SGL (I think):

Attachment: occii.sav
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

	02-04-2004 06:25									#55
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Industrial era save (prematurely saved as ENDGAME, heh):

Attachment: occ endgame.sav
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

	02-04-2004 06:25									#56
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Arrian It depends. When in possession of a tech lead in the industrial era, I was calling up 2 particular AIs (the biggest richest ones) every couple of turns and offering them tech, waiting for them to have gpt available.

I usually don't wait until they have gold available. If I have a tech, I either sell it for what I can get or outright give it to them.

That way, I keep the overall tech discovery rate high *and* I keep everyone Polite or Gracious.

There are exceptions, though. I don't give away Literature until I'm pretty sure the GL is safe, for instance. And, if the "Details" tab on the F4 screen shows they're 1 turn away from the end of a big gpt deal, I'll wait it out.

I check F2 frequently to be sure I know when new Luxuries come on line and I do a full round of the diplo screen every few turns to make sure know new techs have been researched.

I am so eager to keep tech moving that I will sometimes buy a tech for a couple of thousand and then sell it around as best as I can. Often, I take a loss, but often I don't. Either way, it is usually worth it to keep tech moving.

- TT

	02-04-2004 06:27									#57
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Arrian I finished my first OCC game, with a diplomatic victory in 1884 AD. Constantinople was up to 19899 culture, with +99 cpt, so I would have won shortly via culture anyway.

Excellent job! Kind of fun, huh?

I might give your game a play later this evening after I post my Newton's save.

- TT

	02-04-2004 06:28									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The save 1 turn before completing the UN. Dunno if I saved before or after signing MPPs with everyone but Russia

Attachment: occ un.sav
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

	02-04-2004 06:30									#59
	Put an end to popups!

Thanks, TT. Mine's on Monarch, so you will probably find it really easy.

I may do this again on a higher level sometime.

-Arrian

	02-04-2004 06:33									#60
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by ToeTruck I usually don't wait until they have gold available. If I have a tech, I either sell it for what I can get or outright give it to them. That way, I keep the overall tech discovery rate high *and* I keep everyone Polite or Gracious. There are exceptions, though. I don't give away Literature until I'm pretty sure the GL is safe, for instance. And, if the "Details" tab on the F4 screen shows they're 1 turn away from the end of a big gpt deal, I'll wait it out. I check F2 frequently to be sure I know when new Luxuries come on line and I do a full round of the diplo screen every few turns to make sure know new techs have been researched. I am so eager to keep tech moving that I will sometimes buy a tech for a couple of thousand and then sell it around as best as I can. Often, I take a loss, but often I don't. Either way, it is usually worth it to keep tech moving. - TT

I'm MUCH stingier. When my game ended, only 3 of us (me, Russia, Spain) were in the modern age. The other 3 civs were back in the mid-industrial. I did little to change that. They were too poor to offer me anything, so I couldn't be arsed.

I held Lit away from the AI for a long, long time. It was the cause of 1 of my Russian wars, actually. No way I'm giving the AI the ability to build libraries! I think this was a major factor in me holding the tech lead until Radio (the first tech Russia beat me to).

No money? No tech for you! I kept the AIs polite via gifts of 25 gold periodically.

-Arrian