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ToeTruck
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Portland, Maine
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by razzor7
Geez, i guess i'm doing something wrong, but i JUST CAN'T KEEP UP IN TECHS!!! I'm playing form the COpes save, but i'm having no luck *sigh* |
Razzor7, take a look at my next couple of posts. I'm going to include my log from Copes to Newts. In order to keep up tech-wise between Copes and Newts, you often have to buy techs...and trade freely.
In this game, I bought Chemistry 8 turns after building Copes, traded it around to get Banking, renew some Luxury deals, and snag a little gold.
I then researched Physics and Theory of Gravity on my own, used Physics to get Metallurgy and Democracy, and ToG to get Military Tradition, Economics, and Free Artistry.
To leave the Middle Ages, I bought Magnetism. My scientific freebie for entering the Industrial Age (Steam Power) propelled me on my way to Theory of Evolution.
More soon.
- TT
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ToeTruck
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Portland, Maine
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
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Middle Ages Turn Log: (contd)
0380AD: Disband two Warriors.
0390AD: Germany builds Sistine Chapel. Hoplite.
0400AD: Bought Spices from France for 62 gold.
0410AD: Building Wealth. Size 12 again.
=====================
0450AD: Bought Chemistry from France for 648 gold.
Traded Chemistry and 40 gold to Russia for Banking, Wines, and Incense.
Traded Chemistry to Carthage for Music Theory, World Map, 24 gpt, and 28 gold.
Traded Banking around for 1 gpt and 86 gold.
Gave away Music Theory and Chemistry until everyone was equal.
Japanese build Leonardo’s Workshop.
0460AD: Worker.
0470AD: Bought Worker from France for 104 gold. French build JS Bach’s. Size 12 again.
Note: With the French building JS Bach’s, there are no big pre-builds out there that can get to Newton’s before I do. I’ll have to watch for when my rivals start building Magellan’s and Smith’s, but I expect the AI to head for Military Tradition first which means I should get a jump on Newt’s.
Note: I’ve decided to keep Bank as my pre-build for Newton’s. That means wasting a few shields right now, but it should pay off long-term.
0490AD: Hoplite.
0510AD: Worker.
0520AD: Size 12 again.
0550AD: Worker.
0560AD: Bought Silks from Carthage for 21 gold. Bought Gems and Dyes from France for 124 gold. Size 12 again.
=====================
0570AD: Researched Physics.
Traded Physics to Carthage for Democracy, Metallurgy, and World Map.
Traded Democracy to Germany for Navigation and 16 gold.
Sold Democracy to Zulu for 6 gold.
Sold Democracy to Japan for 2 gpt and 45 gold.
Sold Physics to Russia for Iron, 25 gpt, and 47 gold.
Sold Physics to France for Saltpeter, Horses, 20 gpt, and 53 gold.
Sold Physics to Arabia for 10 gpt and 13 gold.
Gave Metallurgy and Physics to Zulu and Japan.
Gave Physics to Germany.
0600AD: Bought Spices from France for 62 gold.
0620AD: Bought Worker from Carthage for 108 gold. Tribute to France.
0650AD: Bought Incense and Wines from Russia for 120 gold.
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0700AD: Bought Worker from France for 105 gold. Researched Theory of Gravity.
Traded Theory of Gravity to Germany for Military Tradition, World Map, and 5 gold.
Traded Military Tradition to Zulu for Economics and 12 gold.
Sold Military Tradition to Arabia for 1 gold.
Traded Theory of Gravity to Japan for Free Artistry and World Map.
Sold Theory of Gravity to Carthage for 17 gpt and 50 gold.
Gave Free Artistry and Theory of Gravity to Zulu and Arabia.
0720AD: Bought Worker from Russia for 120 gold. Bought two Workers from Germany for 230 gold.
=====================
0760AD: Bought Magnetism and Silks from Carthage for 465 gold. Steam Power is my freebie.
Traded Steam Power to Germany for Medicine, World Map, 67 gpt and 130 gold.
Traded Steam Power to France for Gems, Dyes, 23 gpt, and 120 gold.
Traded Steam Power to Russia for World Map, 27 gpt and 57 gold.
Sold Magnetism to Arabia for 8 gpt and 30 gold.
Sold Magnetism to Zulu for 6 gold.
Gave Steam Power to Zulu and Japanese.
Sold Steam Power to Carthage for World Map, 31 gpt, and 530 gold.
Gave Steam Power to Arabia.
0760AD: (contd) Newton’s University.
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ToeTruck
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Portland, Maine
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
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Here's the save from 760 AD:
(BTW - If you use this save, you will probably want to change research from Nationalism to Sanitation)
 Attachment: alexander of the greeks, 760 ad.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).
Last edited by ToeTruck on 02-04-2004 at 08:50
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ToeTruck
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Portland, Maine
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
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The biggest thing I concentrated on was absolutely cranking the overall tech rate.
With the exception of Invention and Gunpowder, I bought a tech from my rival as soon as it was available. Even in those two cases, I didn't wait very long which would have allowed the AI to get too far ahead in tech.
And, as soon as I bought the tech, I traded or gave it away. The way I play, I want to build Copes by 400 AD, Newts by 900 AD, and ToE by 1250 AD.
The one tricky part of trading tech so ferociously is that you really have to think about your pre-builds. You have to gauge the rate at which your nearest rival is researching so that you can accurately estimate how long it will take for a given tech to become available.
The city position in this game was very helpful because of the excellent mix of shields and commerce. By re-arranging which tiles were being worked, I could easily optimize shields *or* commerce. It was great!
- TT
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ToeTruck
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Portland, Maine
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
TT - question: why is pushing the research rate so important to you? |
That's a good question...I'll have to think about that a bit to be sure but here's an answer I have right now.
My first thought is that I played a bunch of Civ2 OCC so I'm a little biased by that experience. It's hard to shake those habits and it's how I measure the quality of a given OCC victory. If a space launch is good, an earlier launch must be better, right? 
To that end, free trading and cranking the global research rate means early entry into Modern Times, early SS parts, and earlier launches. That part makes sense.
More practically, though, I figure that the main advantage an OCC'er has is that he only has to build stuff for one city. So, why give the AI time to develop his infrastsructure?
I can afford to give away things like Education, Banking, and Sanitation. Afterall, I'm only going to be building one of each improvement. The AI has to build dozens. Meanwhile, I get the advantage of the AI doing my research for me. I want the AI to be researching techs he really isn't ready to use yet. I want him swimming in advanced (but useless) technology. 
The AI seems to play like it has some built-in "build schedule". I haven't confirmed this in any way, but it appears that the AI won't even consider building SS Parts (for example) until it reaches some level of "infrastructure maturity". I have little evidence in support, but it appears that way to me.
Also, whenever I slow down the global tech rate, I find myself twiddling my thumbs buiding Wealth or a bunch of units. Even if I can snag an extra Wonder or two, I ask myself "what's the gain"? Wouldn't those 400 shields have been better used for something else. Even the Sistine Chapel is only worth a single Luxury. And at 50 gold every 20 turns, Luxuries are far cheaper than happy-Wonders.
Lastly, I find that slowing the game down often leads to the killer AI situation. Once a civ gets big, there's absolutely nothing a single city civ can do about it.
So...instead I choose to ride the wave.
- TT
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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quote:
I can afford to give away things like Education, Banking, and Sanitation. Afterall, I'm only going to be building one of each improvement. The AI has to build dozens. Meanwhile, I get the advantage of the AI doing my research for me. I want the AI to be researching techs he really isn't ready to use yet. I want him swimming in advanced (but useless) technology. |
I avoided selling Lit, Education and Republic - I don't recall selling any of those to the leaders. Once I see that any had it, I would sell it on to the rest (but again, only if they could pay me something for it). The AI had Theology/Feud/Eng/Inv/Chiv before they got to Literature, IIRC.
I did sell Sanitation, but only because I could drain a huge amount of gpt away from the best AIs. Even then it might have been a mistake not to hold that too. The AI does poorly at setting up its terrain for production, because of over-irrigation. What that translates to, however, is very large AI cities once they get Sanitation (especially considering the reeeeeallly wide AI city spacing in Conquests). That really increases their commerce output.
Sure, the AI has to build 10 or 15 libraries to my one. But they get the effects of those libraries, and I only my one. If I build my library thousands of years before they do, so much the better. If the AI lacks improvements to build b/c of lack of advanced tech, it builds UNITS. Even with some free unit support, it's gotta pay for those units. Further, it will tend to use the units by picking fights. So long as the fight isn't with me, it's to my benifit, usually.
Even though my game gave rise to a KAI, it was to my benifit that Russia spend the ancient & medieval era fighting and destroying the Celts and Ottomans. The AI doesn't take advantage of a big empire the way I would. I investigated a size 14 city right next to mine late in the game. It was "producing" 3 shields per turn.
-Arrian
p.s. I occurs to me that my game differs from yours in more than just difficulty level... yours was PtW, mine was Conquests. The AI, IMO, is more inept in Conquests.
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ToeTruck
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Portland, Maine
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
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quote:
Sure, the AI has to build 10 or 15 libraries to my one. But they get the effects of those libraries, and I only my one. If I build my library thousands of years before they do, so much the better. If the AI lacks improvements to build b/c of lack of advanced tech, it builds UNITS. Even with some free unit support, it's gotta pay for those units. |
My difficulty with trying to slow things down stems from the fact that I just can't slow them down enough!
It always seems that at least one rival will grow to killer size and will either win through domination or out-pace me in tech.
The difficulty I have with lots of warring is that Luxuries often get disconnected from the trade network and having only one city, I don't have a big network for the AI to connect to. Plus, if my border is completely with a single rival (as it often is under OCC), it is very easy for me to be completely disconnected from the trade network.
What strategies did you use to slow the AI down? Alexman described using a "safe war" and you can obviously hold back tech. Anything else?
- TT
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:34
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Well, in my game, there were two long-running wars. One was safe, being on the other continent. The other involved some danger, since the Russians were on my continent, but they did have to get through two others civs to get to me (Celts, Ottomans).
Having near-constant wars on both continents definitely slowed things down. It also provided me with a happiness boost from reverse war-weariness as a republic (when the AI declares war on YOU, you get the happiness boost. If there is no actual combat... it stays).
EDIT: another thing is contacts. I held off giving contact between the two continents as long as I could. The mistake I made was researching Printing Press too soon, because one I had that, civs could demand contact as tribute. Hence, once the Russians had taken over the continent and ordered me to cough up contact with Spain, I had to comply. That irritated me.
By the way, the AI is TERRIBLE at getting to domination. Russia took over the continent, which put them at about 50% of the land area and more of the population. They didn't need much more to win. But the AI isn't coded to go after that win condition. I would only think it's a danger on a Pangea map.
As to the luxury thing... well, I hardly ever got luxuries via trade. They were an afterthought. The slow tech pace allowed me to build the Sistine and Shakespears.
My size 20 city could stay out of disorder w/o any luxury imports, IIRC. In fact, I may have been able to trade away my one source of silks and still been ok.
Imagine if I'd nabbed Mausollos or the HG!
-Arrian
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ToeTruck
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Portland, Maine
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
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quote:
By the way, the AI is TERRIBLE at getting to domination. Russia took over the continent, which put them at about 50% of the land area and more of the population. They didn't need much more to win. But the AI isn't coded to go after that win condition. I would only think it's a danger on a Pangea map. |
That's definitely true when playing non-OCC games, but the AI does a lot better when the only intelligent player is restricted to a single city. Also, I play almost all my OCC games on Pangaea so a killer civ has a decent chance of dominating the map once it gets going.
And, I agree with one of your posts a bit back that the AI is a more inept in Conquests than it was with PTW.
quote:
My size 20 city could stay out of disorder w/o any luxury imports, IIRC. In fact, I may have been able to trade away my one source of silks and still been ok.
Imagine if I'd nabbed Mausollos or the HG!
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I've played a couple of Culture win OCC games with a ton of Wonders. They're a ton of fun to play aren't they?
- TT
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ToeTruck
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Portland, Maine
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
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Industrial Ages Turn Log:
0770AD: Traded Medicine to Japan for Iron, Horses, World Map and 2 gold.
0800AD: Bought Spices from France for 62 gold.
0810AD: Tribute to Russia.
0830AD: Bank.
0850AD: Bought Incense and Wines from Russia for 120 gold.
0860AD: Japanese build Magellan’s Voyage.
0870AD: Traded Medicine to Zulu for World Map, 20 gpt, and 36 gold. Traded Medicine to Arabia for 2 gpt and 70 gold. French build Smith’s Trading Company. Germany builds Shakespeare’s Theater.
0880AD: Bought Coal from Russia for 118 gold. Galleon. (I was using Wonders as a pre-build for Hospital).
0900AD: Disbanded Hoplite for shields. Researched Sanitation.
Traded Sanitation to France for 118 gpt and 25 gold.
Traded Sanitation to Japan for Saltpeter, World Map, 22 gpt, and 91 gold.
Sold Sanitation to Carthage for World Map and 19 gpt.
Sold Sanitation to Arabia for 23 gold. Gave Sanitation to Germany.
Sold Sanitation to Zulu for 4 gpt and 16 gold.
Gave Sanitation to Russia.
Rushed Hospital for 472 gold.
0910AD: Building Wealth. Size 13.
0950AD: Size 14.
0960AD: Bought Silks from Carthage for 21 gold. Bought Gems and Dyes from France for 124 gold.
0970AD: Bought Iron from Japan for 280 gold.
0980AD: Size 15.
1000AD: Bought Spices from France for 62 gold.
1010AD: Size 16.
1030AD: Carthage has Industrialization. Using Ironclad as pre-build for Universal Suffrage which will be pre-build for Theory of Evolution. Or maybe just Factory.
1050AD: Bought Incense and Wines from Russia for 114 gold. Size 17.
1060AD: Researched Electricity.
Traded Electricity to Germany for Industrialization, World Map, 175 gold and 8 gpt.
Sold Electricity to Carthage for 85 gpt and 86 gold.
Sold Electricity to Russia for World Map, 65 gpt and 8 gold.
Traded Electricity and Industrialization to Arabia for Nationalism, World Map, 8 gpt, and 6 gold. Sold Electricity to Zulu for 8 gpt and 8 gold.
Gave Industrialization to Zulu. Sold Electricity to Japan for Horses, World Map, 4 gpt, and 110 gold.
Gave Industrialization to Japan.
Rushed Factory for 696 gold.
1070AD: Disbanded Galleon for shields. Rushed Coal Plant for 580 gold.
1090AD: Size 18.
1100AD: Joined two German Workers to make size 20.
1110AD: Joined one Arabic Worker to make size 21.
Note: Producing 72 shields and 320 commerce per turn with size 21 city. (1 shield and 2 commerce lost to corruption).
Note: Universal Suffrage is an excellent pre-build for Theory of Evolution because US requires 800 shields while ToE requires 600 shields. I will research Scientific Method in 6 turns and build Universal Suffrage in 9 so I can trade away Scientific Method as soon as I get it without risking ToE to my rivals.
Note: France has Replaceable Parts. Yum.
1160AD: Bought Silks from Carthage for 21 gold. Bought Dyes and Gems from France for 124 gold.
Note: This will be a big turn. Need a drink of water before hitting Enter.
1160AD: (contd) Researched Scientific Method.
Traded Scientific Method to Carthage for Replaceable Parts, World Map, 35 gpt, and 43 gold.
Traded Replaceable Parts to Germany for Espionage, World Map, 10 gpt, and 20 gold.
Traded Replaceable Parts and Espionage to Japan for Saltpeter, Communism and 1 gold.
Traded Replaceable Parts to Zulu and Arabia for 1 gold each.
Sold Scientific Method to France for Rubber, Coal, World Map and 150 gold.
Sold Scientific Method to Germany for 3 gold. Sold Scientific Method to Russia for 1 gold.
Gave Scientific Method to Japan.
Gave Scientific Method and Communism to Zulu.
Gave Scientific Method and Espionage to Arabia.
Note: Take a breath.
1160AD: (contd) Theory of Evolution.
Atomic Theory and Electronics are the freebies.
Sold Atomic Theory to France for 301 gpt and 448 gold.
Gave Atomic Theory to Russia, Carthage, Germany, Japan, Zulu, and Arabia.
Researching Radio.
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The Hack
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Toe Truck
Hi, find your threads interesting. Thinking of trying a OCC game but curious about one thing. Do you avoid giving gpt deals to rivals to protect your reputation, because the trade route might be disrupted?
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ToeTruck
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Portland, Maine
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
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I do sometimes trade away Horses or Iron for big gold or I sometimes can trade my single luxury for two of a rivals. But I never really worry about my rep hit if I get disconnected. It does sometimes happen, but I don't think the penalty is that extreme.
BTW - There is a thread that describes reputation factors in detail (thanks vmxa1 and bamspeedy):
Nice guys finish last
- TT
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ToeTruck
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Portland, Maine
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
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Well...something nasty happen on the way to SETI. Russia beat me there!
Here's the log from 1180AD to 1435AD when Russia built SETI. I scrambled enough to build the United Nations in 1450AD instead. I had to kick out over 21,000 gold for Fission, but it was necessary (I could have stole it but didn't)
I could have gotten a diplomatic victory at that point, but I trudged on towards a spacerace victory.
Industrial Age Turn Log (contd)
1200AD: Bought Spices from France for 62 gold.
Traded Electronics to Germany for The Corporation, World Map, and 15 gold.
Sold The Corporation to Carthage for Iron, 18 gpt, and 49 gold.
Sold The Corporation to Russia for World Map and 19 gold.
Sold The Corporation to France for World Map and 90 gold.
Sold The Corporation to Arabia for World Map, 9 gpt, and 16 gold.
Sold The Corporation to Zulu for 8 gold.
Sold The Corporation to Japan for 7 gpt and 17 gold.
1220AD: French build Universal Suffrage.
1250AD: Sold Electronics to Russia for Incense, Wines, World Map, 38 gpt, and 78 gold.
1255AD: Sold Electronics to Arabia for World Map, 19 gpt, and 52 gold.
Sold Electronics to Zulu for 15 gpt and 51 gold.
Sold Electronics to Japan for Horses, 13 gpt, and 47 gold.
1265AD: Hoover Dam.
1280AD: Stock Exchange.
1295AD: Researched Radio.
Traded Radio to Carthage for Steel, World Map, and 23 gpt.
Sold Steel to Japan for 47 gpt and 69 gold.
Sold Steel to Zulu for World Map, 19 gpt, and 15 gold.
Sold Steel to Arabia for World Map, 24 gpt, and 14 gold.
Sold Radio to Germany for World Map and 91 gpt.
Gave Radio to Arabia, Zulu, and Japan.
Police Station.
1300AD: Worker. Discovered Coal!
1305AD: Bought Silks and Refining from Carthage for 2250 gold.
Bought Gems, Dyes, and Rubber from France for 220 gold.
Sold Refining to Arabia for World Map, 48 gpt, and 51 gold.
Sold Refining to Zulu for 22 gpt, and 59 gold.
Sold Refining to Japan for Saltpeter, World Map, 16 gpt, and 35 gold. Size 21 again.
1325AD: Bought Spices from France for 62 gold.
1335AD: Bought Combustion from France for 1540 gold.
Sold Combustion to Japan for Iron, World Map, 24 gpt, and 95 gold.
Sold Combustion to Russia for 23 gpt and 56 gold.
Sold Combustion to Carthage for World Map, 3 gpt, and 236 gold.
Sold Combustion to Zulu for World Map, 7 gpt, and 70 gold.
Sold Combustion to Arabia for World Map, 31 gpt, and 54 gold.
1350AD: Bought Incense and Wines from Russia for 115 gold.
1365AD: Bought Mass Production from France for 2770 gold.
Sold Mass Production to Russia for Horses, World Map, 40 gpt, and 66 gold.
Sold Mass Production to Carthage for World Map, 84 gpt, and 105 gold.
Sold Mass Production to Arabia for World Map, 50 gpt, and 34 gold.
Sold Mass Production to Zulu for World Map, 27 gpt, 120 gold, and one Worker.
Sold Mass Production to Japan for World Map, 24 gpt, and 108 gold.
Gave Mass Production to Germany.
Note: At 16060 gold with 581 coming in per turn. That should get me well into the Modern Age if I need it.
1385AD: Bought Motorized Transport from France for 3670 gold.
Sold Motorized Transportation to Arabia for World Map, 8 gpt, and 57 gold.
Sold Motorized Transportation to Zulu for World Map, 18 gpt, and 75 gold.
Sold Motorized Transportation to Japan for World Map, 12 gpt, and 128 gold.
Gave Motorized Transportation to Germany.
Sold Motorized Transportation to Carthage for World Map and 17 gold.
Sold Motorized Transportation to Russia for World Map and 48 gold.
1395AD: Bought Flight from France for 2250 gold. Computers was my freebie!
Sold Flight to Arabia for World Map, 18 gpt, and 13 gold.
Sold Flight to Zulu for World Map, 10 gpt, and 15 gold.
Sold Flight to Japan for World Map, 18 gpt, and 20 gold.
Traded Computers to Germany for Amphibious Warfare, Ecology, World Map, and 150 gpt.
Traded Ecology to France for Rocketry, World Map, and 970 gold.
Traded Ecology to Carthage for World Map and Aluminum.
Sold Computers to Russia for 7770 gold.
Sold Computers to France for 1280 gold.
Sold Ecology to Japan for World Map, 33 gpt, and 2 gold.
Gave Ecology to Zulu. Gave Ecology to Arabia.
Gave Amphibious Warfare to Zulu, Arabia, and Japan.
1405AD: Sold Computers to Carthage for Silks, World Map, 37 gpt, and 110 gold.
Bought Gems, Dyes, and Rubber from France for 380 gold.
Sold Rocketry to Arabia for Ivory, World Map, 35 gpt, and 20 gold.
Sold Rocketry to Zulu for World Map, 37 gpt, and 20 gold.
Sold Rocketry to Japan for Saltpeter, World Map, 21 gpt, and 20 gold.
Modern Times Turn Log:
1425AD: Bought Spices from France for 90 gold.
1435AD: Russia builds SETI.
1440AD: Buy Fission from France for 21750 gold.
Sold Fission to Russia for Iron, World Map, 171 gpt, and 190 gold.
Sold Fission to Germany for World Map, 262 gpt, and 230 gold.
Sold Computers to Japan for World Map and 97 gold.
Sold Computers to Zulu for World Map, 10 gpt, and 21 gold.
Gave Computers to Arabia.
1450AD: Bought Wines and Incense from Russia for 120 gold.
Sold Fission to Japan for World Map, 43 gpt, and 56 gold.
United Nations.
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ToeTruck
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Portland, Maine
Aug 2001
time: 00:34
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Here's the save from 1450AD, the turn before I built United Nations.
I didn't try for a vote my first time through, but after finishing the space race, I loaded up this save just to prove a Diplomatic Victory was also possible.
Attachment: alexander of the greeks, 1450 ad.sav
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).
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02-04-2004 07:24
Yup, that's the strategy I followed, and it worked fantastically well (granted, it was on Monarch). I mean, I built Leos, for goodness sake! And KT, and the Sistine!
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