30-03-2004 04:23									#1
	Comparison OCC Game Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

A while ago, I posted a guide to playing OCC (one city challenge) games which I've used with decent success at the higher levels (Emperor and Deity).

That thread can be found at:

An OCC Strategy Guide for Emperor and Deity

Recently on that thread, a couple of players have asked for a comparison game so that we can walk through that strategy to what we hope will be an OCC win. I've also been asked to start a new thread to make it easier for new folks to follow.

This thread is that comparison game.

So...

	30-03-2004 04:24									#2
	The Start Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Okay, here's a good start position for OCC. Seems to have a good mix of shields and commerce and shouldn't be too hard to develop.

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=10953_GreeceTrainer4000BC.jpg

The game is PTW 1.27f using a random map. The particulars are:
- Greece
- Standard Map
- Pangaea 70% water
- Wet
- Temperate
- 3 Billion
- Random Rivals (7 of them)
- Sedentary Barbs
- No linked start
- Normal production
- Emperor level

I've played it through building the Great Library, but no further...so I have no idea what's going to happen downstream. Copes and Newts might be easy, they might not.

For the first part of the trainer, I'll post game saves at the following points:
- Turn before researching Writing
- Turn before building Colossus
- Turn before researching Literature
- Turn before building Great Library

Feel free to play along for comparison or feel free to download one of my saves and play from there. I have no guarantee we will even come close to winning, but it should be a bunch of fun along the way.

I will keep an extensive log and a bunch of game saves. I don't plan to move too fast through the game so we might get in some good discussion. We might even play with some "what-ifs" at key points. We'll see.

BTW - If this is successful, I'll do the same thing with C3C when we finish up.

Any questions or thoughts...let me know.

- TT

P.S. Here's the save.

Attachment: alexander of the greeks, 4000 bc.sav
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

	30-03-2004 04:44									#3
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For those that want instant access here is the pic at TT's link:

Attachment: start.jpg
This has been downloaded 130 time(s).

	30-03-2004 04:47									#4
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Nice start TT, two fish two game tiles. The part I want to read about is the method you use to get good relations and keep them.

	30-03-2004 05:08									#5
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Nice start TT, two fish two game tiles. The part I want to read about is the method you use to get good relations and keep them.

Yeah, you've talked about this on other threads I've subscribed to. Establishing good relations and then keeping them is *key* to playing OCC.

I hope we can do well in this game.

- TT

BTW - Thanks for attaching the image.

	30-03-2004 05:46									#6
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You might have missed this post from another thread. I played through it once, but missed Newtons:

ok, ya, France beat me to newtons by ALOT in my first game. Any ideas as to what i can do to improve?

And how the heck are they getting 4 sheilds per turn from their hills? (EDIT: They where in golden age *smacks head*) They are in the industrial ages tho.


Thanks

Last edited by razzor7 on 30-03-2004 at 06:30

	30-03-2004 06:28									#7
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Ok, second game:

Same as last, mostly, i tryed a new tactic. I sucked the gpt outta the french to slow them down AND speed me up. I was 8 turns from ToG and was literally bitting my nails, i even had to wash my face with cold water and take a short break as to not gnaw off my arm. But anyway, the French where getting about 4 gpt, and they beat me to ToG, and they have more production. This is getting annoying. At that point, French have tech lead, and I'm right behind them, but i JUST CAN'T STOP IT!!!

Any ideas? The thing is, I was equal in tech until then, but that stinking production increase let them take the lead...

Thanks

BTW - I'm already loading up another game

	30-03-2004 06:54									#8
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Hi Razzor,

Instead of loading up another game, try using this start. It's worked pretty well for me. It has a lot more shields than the other game you showed me.

We can play a bit, compare what we're doing and where we're at and go from there.

Good luck.

- TT

	30-03-2004 07:28									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

Hey, BTW you really got me hooked on OCC

I am using this start. It's great. On my third game (playing right now) Zulu declared war on the two big powerhouses, I'm hoping they'll:

A) Leave me alone

B) Slow down wonder construction/research

How far have you gotten?

	30-03-2004 07:44									#10
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*humming joyfull tune, and aiming DE Magnum at computer* Oh..Paris, Paris, Paris, how i love thee, how i love thee not...DIE %$#@&!!!! *plugs 27 rounds into Paris, Surrounding towns, my printer, and alarm clock. *insane cackle*

OK, i'm turning in for the night. So far, the same EXACT thing has happened, every game, France beats me to Newtons. Any ideas? Any suggestions? Any extra rounds, cuz, ya know, i'm out and the Zulu are pissing me off too.

Peace out.


P.S. Wait, how the heck did i just type this if my computer is in shambles?...oh %$#@ my dog...

	30-03-2004 07:54									#11
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quote: Originally posted by razzor7 Hey, BTW you really got me hooked on OCC

That's cool; I'm hooked too.

quote: Originally posted by razzor7 How far have you gotten?

I'll post tomorrow night a couple of saves and logs up to building the Great Library. I've played a bit further, but I'd like to give anyone else who is following this a chance to play a bit.

- TT

	30-03-2004 16:42									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well, do you have any idea what I'm doing wrong? I'm trying to get Newtons...but it's driving me insane *loads gun* I'll play another today.

	31-03-2004 02:10									#13
	Building the Great Library Suffering from ads?

My first step in playing OCC under pre-Conquests is to research Writing and Literature on the way to building the Great Libray. Builds will be a couple of Warriors, a Worker, a Granary or Temple (or both), the Colossus, and the Great Library.

Here is the picture in 875BC, the turn before building the Great Library:

Attachment: greecetrainer0875bc.jpg
This has been downloaded 94 time(s).

Last edited by ToeTruck on 31-03-2004 at 02:20

	31-03-2004 02:12									#14
	Building the Great Library: Log Inflate your Upload Space

Ancient Times Turn Log:

4000BC: Founded Athens. Six rivered tiles, three Game, and two Fish. Researching Writing at 1 beaker/turn.
3850BC: Warrior.
3650BC: Warrior.
3550BC: Pottery from Hut. Size 2.
3500BC: Worker.
3200BC: Contact with Russia. Traded Alphabet and 3 gold for Ceremonial Burial.
3150BC: Contact with France.
3050BC: Size 2 again.
2590BC: Size 3
2230BC: Clearing a Forest in preparation for building Granary (after Colossus is done).
2190BC: Writing. Researching Literature at 100%. Size 4.

Traded Writing to France for Masonry, The Wheel, Iron Working, and 11 gold.
Traded Writing to Russia for Contact with Carthage, Warrior Code, and 16 gold.
Traded Iron Working to Carthage for Contact with Arabs and 6 gold.
Traded Iron Working and Alphabet to Arabia for Contact with Germany, Contact with Zulu, and 40 gold.
Traded Alphabet to Zulu for Contact with Japanese and 9 gold.
Gave Alphabet to Germany.
Gave Masonry and Alphabet to Japan.
Sold Contact with Zulu and Japanese to Russia for 31 gold.
Gave Contact with Germany and Arabs to Russia.
Gave Contact with Japanese and Germany to France.
Gave Writing to Arabia.

All rivals are Polite.

1950BC: Colossus.
1790BC: Size 5.
1725BC: Granary. Using Pyramids as lead item for Great Library.
1525BC: Size 6.
1400BC: Size 7.
1300BC: Researched Literature. Killing research and holding Literature.
1025BC: Size 8.
0875BC: Great Library. Golden Age. French build Oracle.

	31-03-2004 02:13									#15
	2190BC: Turn before Writing Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Here's the save from 2190BC:

Attachment: alexander of the greeks, 2190 bc.sav
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

	31-03-2004 02:14									#16
	1950BC: Turn before Colossus Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Here's the save from 1950BC:

Attachment: alexander of the greeks, 1950 bc.sav
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

	31-03-2004 02:15									#17
	1300BC: Turn before Literature Got spare money?

Here's the save from 1300BC:

Attachment: alexander of the greeks, 1300 bc.sav
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

	31-03-2004 02:16									#18
	875BC; Turn before Great Library Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Here's the save from 875BC:

Attachment: alexander of the greeks, 875 bc.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	31-03-2004 02:20									#19
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I'll post a couple of saves on the way to building Copernicus' Observatory tomorrow evening unless there is a bunch of discussion on these saves.

- TT

	31-03-2004 03:57									#20
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I'm...going...to...suckerpunch...Bismark...and...Joan of Arch...AHHHHHH!!!!!!! Stupid PEOPLE AND THEIR STUPID BUILDING OF STUPID STUFF BEFORE STUPID ME!!!!1!!!

Ok, now the Germans got COPES before me... i'm cursed

	31-03-2004 20:34									#21
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You can actually build the Colossus, Great Library, and Oracle by 875BC.

4000: Plop Athens, move worker N to game, research writing at 1 beaker per turn
3950: Chop forest
3500: Borders expand, pop hut (pottery), Athens size 2, luxuries 20%
3450: Chop done, irrigate
3300: Granary built
3250: Irrigation done, road
3150: Worker built, move to SE to game
3100: Chop forest, road done, move SE to bonud grass
3050: Warrior built, mine bonus grass
2950: Worker built, move SE to game
2900: Help chop game
2850: Warrior built
2750: Chop done, Hoplite built, irrigate game
2710: Meet France, nothing to trade, meet Arabs
2670: Worker built
2590: Worker built
2550: Meet Russia, Alphabet+44g to Russia for Worker, Alphabet to Arabs for Burial+10g
2510: Size 4
2430: Size 5
2350: Size 6
2270: Size 7
2150: Discover Writing
Writing to Russia for contacts (Carthage+Zulu)+63g
Writing+2g to Zulu for contacts (Japan)+WarriorCode
Writing to Japan for contacts (Germans)+55g
Writing to Germans for Mysticism+13g
Mysticism to Russia for Iron Working + contacts (Germany)
Mysticism to Carthage for Masonry+9g
Mysticism+Writing to France for Wheel
Contacts (Russia) to Arabs for 11g
2070: Size 8
1910: Join 2 Workers into Athens, size 10
1870: Size 11
1790: colossus built
1750: Join Worker (size 12), sell Granary
1550: Arabs demand 26g tribute, we give
1200: Germans demand Literature, we refuse, they declare war. Great Library built, GA
Embassy with France, alliance against Germany for Literature+Worldmap+210g
1175: Japan demands Literature, goes away
1150: Embassy with Carthage, alliance versus germans for Literature+Worldmap+21g+6gpt
Literature to Russia for TerritoryMap+41g
Literature to Zulu for TerritoryMap+31g
Literature+WorldMap to Arabs for 18g
1050: Arabia and France sign alliance against Germany :-)
1025: Philosophy to Japan for TerritoryMap
875: Oracle built

Attachment: alexman of the greeks, 900 bc.sav
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

	31-03-2004 20:41									#22
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A couple of differences from master ToeTruck's game:

The fastest way to grow to size 12 is to build a bunch of workers with a Granary before size 6 and then join them back into the city to reach size 12. You can sell the Granary at that point, as you can join foreign workers after you get Sanitation.

Having a safe world war going is good because it slows down the tech pace and it allows you to break more Wonder cascades.

	31-03-2004 21:58									#23
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Thanks Alexman, this is exactly the type of discussion I hoped would occur.

I agree wholeheartedly that building a Granary before Colossus is a very viable approach to OCC that oftens works quite well (as you have shown) This is especially true with a couple of Cattle or Forested Game.

I see three concerns that are fairly minor, but should be considered nonetheless:

1) Building a granary can put the Colossus at risk. Not only have you committed the turns and shields to a Granary, but you have reduced the overall shield production in the short-term. In this game, our "shield production profiles" would be dramatically different. A turn-by-turn comparison would be interesting.

2) You want to make sure you are not paying a lot of unit cost when the time comes to research Literature. This is usually not too hard to manage and wasn't a problem in your game.

3) If you are playing with a higher Barb setting, you have less freedom to move those unguarded workers around. I've had some "granary-first" games in which I've also had to use turns (and shields) building units as guards.

Regarding your Germanic War, I agree that a safe war slows the overall tech pace which is sometimes good for OCC. I usually pay all tributes unless I am very sure that I will lose the GL. I would be interested in playing from your 1200BC position to see what would have happened if you had acceeded to Bismark's demand. My game has not evolved enough to include "safe wars" as part of my OCC strategy.

All things considered, I *like* a fast paced game tech-wise as I want to reach Copes and Newts before the AI has fully finished developing its infrastructure. Slowing things down might let you build more of the earlier Wonders, but it makes the game more difficult down the road (IMHO). That said, there are lots of times when an emergent KAI kicks my behind and I wish things were going more slowly.

The only other thing on my mind is that I prefer to use my GA to build improvements instead of Wonders. I have no firm evidence which works better and it is probably different case-by-case, but that is my normal rule of thumb.

This is great. Let's keep going. I'll post my "turn before Copes" save this evening.

Thanks for the post Alexman.

- TT

BTW - I'll probably also replay the Ancient Era building a Granary first just to see how it goes.

	31-03-2004 21:58									#24
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Hey guys: in your opinion(s), what is the best civ (Conquests) for OCC?

I was thinking the Babs, but is an early GA (Colossus + GL) really that good?

Then I was thinking the Byzantines, who get a bonus to contacts to get more out of the Great Library, but they have the very same GA issue.

What about Sumer? Sure, Agr is largely wasted, but it will help a bit (+1 food, with the right terrain, effectively tranlates to +1 shield at size12, with the city maxed out for production). But then the GA issue becomes a problem the other way 'round. How to trigger it? Agr wonders are: Pyramids, HG, Hoover? Something like that. Is that no good then?

I've been pondering toying around with OCC, and I'd like to start out with a bit of a stacked deck (Monarch level, a good civ for it) to get a feel for it.

-Arrian

	31-03-2004 23:04									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Hey guys: in your opinion(s), what is the best civ (Conquests) for OCC?

In C3C, I've had some very good games playing the Byzantines. They have the same GA triggers as the Greeks which means I'm very comfortable with the flow of the game, plus the Curraghs absolutely kick for contact and tech-trading.

At Emperor, I've done very well researching Writing at 50 turns while buying and trading for everything "to the left of and below" Iron Working. Then research Philosophy for the Construction freebie.

Or, you can try the "early Republic" approach and trade The Republic around.

Both of these approaches allow you to skip the GL entirely and let you get well into the Middle Ages before your rivals can get established. This also allows for a later GA.

I agree with you about the Sumerians. At first glance, I thought they would be excellent, but I've never quite gotten them to click playing OCC. I think I kicked off a GA with the Hanging Gardens once and that propelled me towards Copes pretty well, but I got lost after that.

- TT

	01-04-2004 00:49									#26
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Hmm, I'm thinking a bit more on it... tech path and wonders:

My first instinct would be to do what I do normally on Monarch: shoot straight at Republic, then go back for Literature. But if I'm a scientific civ, maybe lit first? But then I can't really hope to do Code of Laws first, then Philo, and expect to be 1st to philo & hence get republic free.

Wonders: Obviously the Colossus first. But then maybe the Mausoleum (ack, sp)? Problem is that wonder is Sci/Sea, IIRC. That triggers the Byzantine GA all by itself, and would trigger a GA for the Babs too in conjunction with the Colossus. It would be awfully nice for happiness, though. Ok, ditch that one.

The Hanging Gardens is a pretty solid replacement for Mausolos, I guess.

The Library seems huge, but I suppose on Monarch one *might* be able to do without. But what would you build instead?

The Lighthouse could be useful in certain situations, but I doubt one would manage to get it if you've already built the Colossus - any seafaring AIs that were wonderbuilding would switch over to the Lighthouse.

Oracle? For culture and a small period of double-strength temples... I guess.

If you have ivory, would you build Zeus?

Moving on the the middle ages...

Sun Tzu: no
Leos: no
Sistine: ? Maybe? Doesn't seem worth it, especially given the need for Copernicus.
KT: bah.
Copernicus: clearly
Bach: big empire wonder, like Sun Tzu. Not worth it for 1 city.
Magellan: nah
Smiths: nah
Newton: clearly
Shakespear: seems all sorts of worthwhile. Demo has high trade value, too.

Univ Suff: nah
ToE: clearly
Hoover: denial value only, so no, I'd think.
UN: must-have
SETI: getting late in the game, and SS parts might be the priority. Dunno. I'd be happy to get this far and still be in the race.

Any glaring misconceptions in there?

-Arrian

	01-04-2004 01:13									#27
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alexman: why build the Oracle instead of the Mausoleum? To prevent the AIs from accumulating 200+ Shields?

Arrian: the Great Library is not a must-have, but it does make things easier. Copernicus' and Newton's are not must-haves either (see my OCC game in Mountain Sage's Emperor thread).

The Golden Age in OCC games is important, but overrated. Since you have only once city, you're going to maximize the use of your GA on a local scale pretty much anytime after it reaches size 12 and you've switched governments. Contrast this to standard games, where you need all your cities to be productive to get maximum benefit from the GA.

OCC is more about trading with and exploiting the AI than building up a great city (although that's the fun part, I admit). What you need to achieve is a situation in the early Industrial era where you're selling techs to the AIs for gpt. At that point you've won.


Dominae

	01-04-2004 01:18									#28
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If you have a coastal city, do you MM during "down times" when there aren't wonders to build or lots of improvements needed, and put the citizens out on coastal tiles (as opposed to land tiles not next to rivers) for the +1 commerce/turn?

-Arrian

	01-04-2004 01:30									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae alexman: why build the Oracle instead of the Mausoleum? To prevent the AIs from accumulating 200+ Shields?

The main reason is because this is a PTW save.

	01-04-2004 01:35									#30
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Can you get the HG too? If not, wouldn't that have been superior to the Oracle?

-Arrian